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Ep.156: Ben Reagan, The Center for Palliative Care Part II

Cannabis Economy Podcast
Ep.156: Ben Reagan, The Center for Palliative Care Part II

Ep.156: Ben Reagan, The Center for Palliative Care Part II

Ben Reagan returns to share exactly what’s happening as we speak in Washington State. New regulations have him refitting his current medical marijuana facility into updated 502 standards from the state.  Ben takes us through how he’s balancing what the state wants with what his patients needs.  He’s essentially engineering his supply chain to ensure that the 502 approved farmers with which he’s working provide him with dose appropriate, specific, personalized and cost effective product for each of his patients to ensure that they don’t have to turn to the illicit market. Feel free to send feedback to engage@canneconomy.com.

Transcript:

Speaker 2: Ben Reagan returns, but first we go back to episode 71 with Ben and his partner, Jeremy Count's been kind of sharing how they got together or why they're doing what they're doing and you know, their general philosophy. So enjoy that. Uh, that first conversation, at least a piece of it,

Speaker 3: I found cannabis works really, really well for um, Adhd and depression in the late nineties, uh, and then using it as a means to survive myself through college, uh, broke my neck snowboarding and the early two thousands get addicted to opiates and then found that cannabinoid content worked really, really well for all the conditions I was dealing with having a titanium rod pulling a bunch of vertebrae together. Um, and then so that kind of started that journey. And then in 2007 or eight, ben and I kind of got together and started powering. And then in 2009 the CPC really became a real place and it's a center for Palliative care is what it stands for. And palliative really is the treatment of, of any symptom that a condition creates and cannabis having, you know, at this point, hundreds to thousands of compounds on any given strain. You're dealing with an incredible range of compounds that create palliative function for the human body.

Speaker 1: So we're going to get into the 2009 and beyond. You literally broke your neck. Yes. Smashed into a tree. Snowboarding a. were you a decent snowboarder? And that was just a little bit of bad luck. Yes, because I'm looking at you. I feel like you know what you're doing. Yeah, it was bad loans. Bad Day. Alright. So you break your neck and uh, they kind of put you back together and then a dumpy on to all sorts of what, what, what, what did they put you on medicine model? A oxy

Speaker 3: cotton fentanyl. Diazepam a mood stabilizers, antidepressants. I mean the concoction, you know, any day it was between 400 and 800 milligrams depending on what the condition I was dealing with that day and how severe it was.

Speaker 1: Uh, so I'm in the hospital. How long were you in the hospital? About a week. Okay. And then how long were you taking that type of a concoction after leaving the hospital? A Rehab took me about two years. And so over that two year period, when did you kind of say or, or how did it come to be that you were on kind of all that and then you weren't?

Speaker 3: Uh, I actually became suicidal and ended up in Rehab and a friend of mine who just kind of handed me a Brownie and was like, hey, this will work. And I was like, it's garbage. I used to smoke that stuff for adhd and stuff, but it doesn't really work for pain. And uh, then it worked and then we kind of became, well, I can transfer to bites of Brownie for 10 milligrams of Methadone and then you realize there's a system and I'm a systems analyst by trade. It's actually what I learned in college. Um, so then it became my life's pursuit to really figure out how to systematically get cannabinoids into the human body in an effective way to deal with the cost of conditions that humans deal with.

Speaker 1: So you, you, uh, had dealt with Adhd, Adhd, and had success with that and then, uh, didn't understand what the kind of pain relief, uh, options were. And then obviously that became obvious to you and then you want it to spread the word. Where along that path did ben come in?

Speaker 3: Ben? I don't have the science mind. Like that's really it. Like I don't, I mean I knew that you could make these products. I knew they existed from a systematic standpoint, but the reality to sit down and really make them was, was totally beyond the, the, the, the structure skillsets that I have. So ben has this crazy brain that you just, you can't match, you can't, like I, I stopped arguing with them years ago. Like he, he, he remembers a huge majority of what he reads and what he, what he sees and what you tell him. So when he really liked goes to work on understanding a product or process, he just, anything he reads that adds to that knowledge base, he doesn't forget. So after months and months of researching a process where most people have to reread something, I'm in time again to become a phd level person year after year here. He can, he can. It's just insane. So yeah, the electric.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that he stopped. You stopped arguing with him many years ago, you said? No. Okay. I know I'm right. Unless I can actually go to the article or like and be like, no, I know this is legit. Like exactly like it's, it's actually one of my tattoos, so it's literally on my body. All right. All right. So then where does that brain develop? I mean, you're from Washington, right?

Speaker 3: Uh, yeah. I grew up in oak harbor from second grade on Military Brat.

Speaker 1: Okay. Military Brat. I did ask you if you're a scientist, you say you're not a scientist. Uh, Jeremy says you have a scientific brain bridged the dots for us, I would

Speaker 3: say, researcher to be able to take, to find data, take it in, and to be able to apply that data in a larger scope. Um, I think a lot of it's that research side. Um, we're very fortunate here that I get to work with people one on one as far as our community members and patients go. So that constant bounce back and forth to is one of those honing into things, you know. So for me, like my introduction into cannabis was helping my dad out with some old navy injuries and stuff he has so we can actually eat food and that was combined introduction, the medical side and then I think I was talking to Jeremy One day and he was mentioning having to go back to work in finance and how much he didn't want to have to do that as like, oh, I mean we could always maybe start a dispensary or something. We probably could. And I think we bounced the idea around for a couple months before really getting serious about it. So in that time period is around 2009, a 2008 I think or so because it took us a while to get things organized to figure out how to do it correctly and get caught up. All right. So, but let's, let's talk about your dad and how you kind of found the right treatment for him, you know, start at the beginning. So, um, how it began

Speaker 4: as I was up there for fourth of July and my step mom turns to me and goes, Hey, your dad's not eating. He asked to throw up after he eats. So he basically just subsist on coffee syrups all day through coffee, which isn't good when you're have a family history of diabetes. Right. So, um, there were like, do you have any cannabis he could try? And I was like, well, yeah, I got some of my car and I'm like, aren't you on a break? I was like, Kinda break them on vacation now. I just got laid off. So I got into the car and I grabbed some cannabis and they come back, um, and we smoke a bowl together. I'm in literally 30 minutes later he's able to eat a sandwich and hold it down. So, um, that was kind of the building for that. Um, and then from there we started developing like the teacher products that we carry and stuff like that. So it was kind of that introduction and then figure out how to deliver it to them. We wouldn't have to smoke. Um, I think became a big one after that. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Ben Reagan returns, but first we go back to episode 71 with Ben and his partner, Jeremy Count's been kind of sharing how they got together or why they're doing what they're doing and you know, their general philosophy. So enjoy that. Uh, that first conversation, at least a piece of it,

Speaker 3: I found cannabis works really, really well for um, Adhd and depression in the late nineties, uh, and then using it as a means to survive myself through college, uh, broke my neck snowboarding and the early two thousands get addicted to opiates and then found that cannabinoid content worked really, really well for all the conditions I was dealing with having a titanium rod pulling a bunch of vertebrae together. Um, and then so that kind of started that journey. And then in 2007 or eight, ben and I kind of got together and started powering. And then in 2009 the CPC really became a real place and it's a center for Palliative care is what it stands for. And palliative really is the treatment of, of any symptom that a condition creates and cannabis having, you know, at this point, hundreds to thousands of compounds on any given strain. You're dealing with an incredible range of compounds that create palliative function for the human body.

Speaker 1: So we're going to get into the 2009 and beyond. You literally broke your neck. Yes. Smashed into a tree. Snowboarding a. were you a decent snowboarder? And that was just a little bit of bad luck. Yes, because I'm looking at you. I feel like you know what you're doing. Yeah, it was bad loans. Bad Day. Alright. So you break your neck and uh, they kind of put you back together and then a dumpy on to all sorts of what, what, what, what did they put you on medicine model? A oxy

Speaker 3: cotton fentanyl. Diazepam a mood stabilizers, antidepressants. I mean the concoction, you know, any day it was between 400 and 800 milligrams depending on what the condition I was dealing with that day and how severe it was.

Speaker 1: Uh, so I'm in the hospital. How long were you in the hospital? About a week. Okay. And then how long were you taking that type of a concoction after leaving the hospital? A Rehab took me about two years. And so over that two year period, when did you kind of say or, or how did it come to be that you were on kind of all that and then you weren't?

Speaker 3: Uh, I actually became suicidal and ended up in Rehab and a friend of mine who just kind of handed me a Brownie and was like, hey, this will work. And I was like, it's garbage. I used to smoke that stuff for adhd and stuff, but it doesn't really work for pain. And uh, then it worked and then we kind of became, well, I can transfer to bites of Brownie for 10 milligrams of Methadone and then you realize there's a system and I'm a systems analyst by trade. It's actually what I learned in college. Um, so then it became my life's pursuit to really figure out how to systematically get cannabinoids into the human body in an effective way to deal with the cost of conditions that humans deal with.

Speaker 1: So you, you, uh, had dealt with Adhd, Adhd, and had success with that and then, uh, didn't understand what the kind of pain relief, uh, options were. And then obviously that became obvious to you and then you want it to spread the word. Where along that path did ben come in?

Speaker 3: Ben? I don't have the science mind. Like that's really it. Like I don't, I mean I knew that you could make these products. I knew they existed from a systematic standpoint, but the reality to sit down and really make them was, was totally beyond the, the, the, the structure skillsets that I have. So ben has this crazy brain that you just, you can't match, you can't, like I, I stopped arguing with them years ago. Like he, he, he remembers a huge majority of what he reads and what he, what he sees and what you tell him. So when he really liked goes to work on understanding a product or process, he just, anything he reads that adds to that knowledge base, he doesn't forget. So after months and months of researching a process where most people have to reread something, I'm in time again to become a phd level person year after year here. He can, he can. It's just insane. So yeah, the electric.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that he stopped. You stopped arguing with him many years ago, you said? No. Okay. I know I'm right. Unless I can actually go to the article or like and be like, no, I know this is legit. Like exactly like it's, it's actually one of my tattoos, so it's literally on my body. All right. All right. So then where does that brain develop? I mean, you're from Washington, right?

Speaker 3: Uh, yeah. I grew up in oak harbor from second grade on Military Brat.

Speaker 1: Okay. Military Brat. I did ask you if you're a scientist, you say you're not a scientist. Uh, Jeremy says you have a scientific brain bridged the dots for us, I would

Speaker 3: say, researcher to be able to take, to find data, take it in, and to be able to apply that data in a larger scope. Um, I think a lot of it's that research side. Um, we're very fortunate here that I get to work with people one on one as far as our community members and patients go. So that constant bounce back and forth to is one of those honing into things, you know. So for me, like my introduction into cannabis was helping my dad out with some old navy injuries and stuff he has so we can actually eat food and that was combined introduction, the medical side and then I think I was talking to Jeremy One day and he was mentioning having to go back to work in finance and how much he didn't want to have to do that as like, oh, I mean we could always maybe start a dispensary or something. We probably could. And I think we bounced the idea around for a couple months before really getting serious about it. So in that time period is around 2009, a 2008 I think or so because it took us a while to get things organized to figure out how to do it correctly and get caught up. All right. So, but let's, let's talk about your dad and how you kind of found the right treatment for him, you know, start at the beginning. So, um, how it began

Speaker 4: as I was up there for fourth of July and my step mom turns to me and goes, Hey, your dad's not eating. He asked to throw up after he eats. So he basically just subsist on coffee syrups all day through coffee, which isn't good when you're have a family history of diabetes. Right. So, um, there were like, do you have any cannabis he could try? And I was like, well, yeah, I got some of my car and I'm like, aren't you on a break? I was like, Kinda break them on vacation now. I just got laid off. So I got into the car and I grabbed some cannabis and they come back, um, and we smoke a bowl together. I'm in literally 30 minutes later he's able to eat a sandwich and hold it down. So, um, that was kind of the building for that. Um, and then from there we started developing like the teacher products that we carry and stuff like that. So it was kind of that introduction and then figure out how to deliver it to them. We wouldn't have to smoke. Um, I think became a big one after that. Yeah.

Speaker 1: And so, so there you have it. I mean, just with the two of you, you have three different applications of the plan. You've got Adhd, you've got a pain relief and then you know, you've got appetite development, right? So is that why I know that, uh, when I think of the CPC, I see a capsule,

Speaker 4: most definitely. That is definitely why we're lucky enough to really be on top of that one. Um, and we do supply quite a few patients in the state with capsules.

Speaker 3: Well that's, it's a funny story. Like I kinda like going on with Ben, say like I did in Rehab and doing all that I was, I was living in Australia and Isabelle like, yeah, like 2005. And that's what the vision was. Like. It was like, okay, if I'm on pills and I can take a Brownie, then this can be in a pill like that. And that's where I'm talking like the ability to. So I, for years there was no way to really make it happen without Ben. Like that was really the concept and, and even even when we started, it was hard to get people in, in our own company, like get on board with the idea that we're going to put cannabis and pills. That was revolutionary back when we started.

Speaker 1: Totally. And I would imagine there was a pushback because let's respect a flower and you know, your point of view would be no, we are respecting the flower.

Speaker 4: Yeah. You know, I'm a considerably. We, you know, we make sure that the effect of the flower shows up in the end product. So when people take this capsule, it will have the same effect as if they were smoking that original flower. So. And that was a hard part to make sure that NP shows up in there without having to add a bunch of stuff to create enough benefit.

Speaker 1: Ben Reagan, the CPC

Speaker 2: Ben Reagan returns to share exactly what's happening as we speak in Washington state regulations have him refitting his current medical marijuana facility into updated five. Oh, two standards from the state. Welcome to cannabis economy. I'm your host Seth Adler. Check us out on social with the handle can economy. That's two ends and the word economy. And if you're into more direct communication, feel free to send me an email@engageatCanneseconomy.com. I'd love your feedback on the show. We'll also start to feature supporters of the program in July so you can use and engage in Canada economy.com if you're interested in helping out the show. Ben Takes us through how balancing, what the state wants with what patients need. Very interesting conversation with Ben, right?

Speaker 5: All right, so here's been Reagan back again. A Washington state, seattle. It is June and July first. I can't help but notice it's around the corner, right Ben?

Speaker 4: It sure is. And it's moving closer and closer to us and it's hard to believe it's already the eighth.

Speaker 5: All right, so let's back up and share with folks that might not know. Um, but do it quickly for folks that definitely do know, uh, what has happened to date. So you went live, uh, with adult use cannabis and then they changed things. So take us through those, the iterations of changes up to where you are now.

Speaker 4: So Washington state went live with adult use cannabis. I'm saying they wouldn't touch medical and then through lobbying by the recreational group, um, they've gotten the rules changed and decided that the lcb would take under medical. Um, and with that they've imposed a bunch of new regulations are made us hop through a bunch of hoops. They've effectively have closed down what's to believed to be, I don't know, I think they're gonna let 222 stores roll over, but there is saying there's 600 some stores in the state that do medical. So they've effectively eliminated a lot of competition. Um, they've imposed any regulations that require us to get training and things like that to do a job you've already been doing for seven years now. Um, and now we're not qualified to do those jobs anymore. Almost we do these classes, um, things of that nature.

Speaker 4: So for us it's been, um, some updates to the building for codes and stuff like that. It's been a new training for our people on the day, of course are charging us for, even though we know more than the people doing it. Um, things of that nature. So a big things for us are we had to close down for several weeks in order to meet new rules which are patients hanging, um, and then we are in this weird deadline to get things moved over so that we can reopen as quickly as possible once the July first deadline falls.

Speaker 5: Okay. And so, you know, as far as, let's just kind of devil's advocate this and say they're in a, they're putting together regulations and standards for the industry so that everybody's on the same page. So be it that you've got to learn the job that you know how to do for seven years and that you are better at that job then the instructor, but you are getting a certificate that says, you know, hey, I'm a, I'm okay, uh, by the state, but let's clarify as far as the legal medical program, what is happening to medical cannabis in Washington?

Speaker 4: So what's happening in the medical cannabis is being run rolled over under the same regulations, the Lcb meet. I'm currently, the Department of Health was supposed to come out with new roles of which they haven't yet declared and they were coming down to three weeks a part of those new rules are mostly the worried about registry database as opposed to approving products and stuff that I know of. Um, their posts be changing doses. Um, so right now the recreational side is 10 milligrams per unit up to 100 milligrams in a pack. Um, the rumor is because I haven't actually seen the rules yet, our 50 milligram doses, 500 milligrams and pack for medical patients providing, they put themselves on a voluntary registry. So you have to put yourself in a registry, um, which is the biggest change for most patients, a registry that any doctor can have access to any sheriff or other employees can have access to.

Speaker 4: So it doesn't sound very secure. Um, so there's already a large subset of people who don't want to be on a database to begin with. Um, especially for folks who have a, you know, pretty high profile jobs or at least pretty high up in their companies, I'm with concern that if that data gets Leeka can be used against them. Unfortunately the stigma still exists around cannabis, especially in the workplace. Um, so it's really just putting a lot of people on their heels and, and most of the concern right now, but the department of health is how do we track people instead of how do we help people? Right.

Speaker 5: Okay. So how do we track these medical patients? Uh, that is, you know, operation one as far as Lcb as far as the state is concerned. Okay, fine. So that's what we're doing. It's not great. Um, talk about the dosage again. Did you just, and we're going to come back to this, uh, talk about the dosage again. Did you say the highest dosage can be 50 milligrams? Obviously we know with medical patients that are recovering from chemotherapy, they need much more, much higher doses than, than 50 milligrams. Is that what you're saying? No, there's going to be that cap.

Speaker 4: There is going to be that cap per unit to my understanding currently and then to, you know, um, so what we've done here on the Ar side is to adjust our portion sizes so where you'd have a 26 grand Carmel that would have 100 milligrams in it or 50 milligrams, we're going to shrink that down. So it's a, you know, eight Grand Carmel that has the 50 milligrams in it. So if you have to eat 10 of them throughout the day to get your dose, you're not consuming what would have been like 800 to a thousand calories in product. A lot of these people, dietary needs are very important. Um, I have ms patients who consume 250 milligrams in a day just to maintain, um, so the aspect of having to eat a bunch of stuff on his, especially just a, is a real concern. Um, and since I haven't seen any approved products yet, currently when we roll over, the only thing that's gonna be available to them or the 10 milligram doses.

Speaker 5: All right, so, so that's the dosage. And thank you for kind of taking us through your, your ms patient, a good example of why you've got to completely change your product assortment. Now your skews, if you will. Um, but you're going ahead and doing that. Fantastic. Okay, fine. That you keep saying this rollover, rollover. Um, go ahead and take us through again for folks that don't know the difference between five. Oh, two and medical. What's happening so that folks understand what you mean by rollover.

Speaker 4: Um, when I talk about rollover on talking about the push to put medical organizations, excuse me, into the [inaudible] scheme or regulation base us right now as an operating entity or considered pretty much unregulated. Um, even though we follow a lot of the same rules, most industries follow, um, when, when they say unregulated, it's specifically to rules around cannabis, you know, as a business unregulated. Um, uh, as employees I have, I'm regulated and all that stuff like any other business. Um, so when we talk about rollover, they're allowing 22 stores in Seattle to move over that, our medical now to move over into the new regulation base. Even though there's like 110 here, so you know, they've affected many of this has been a push by the IFA to folks to reduce the level of competition.

Speaker 5: Interesting. And so you're one of the lucky 22. Basically.

Speaker 4: I am one of the lucky 22. I'm currently, my understanding too is the department of Health is, it can be taken public comments on these, on the new rules that are being crafted until July 11th, which is kind of a concern because they were posted haven't done by July first.

Speaker 5: Right, of course, because that's when you have to have your stuff in order, but a note, no matter. Fine, we'll, we'll do what you need and then we'll comment after. That's fine. So, um, you're redoing your product assortment to make sure that the dosage makes sense for an ms patient. Uh, you're rolling over, you're taking classes that you don't need. Okay. Fine. And everything's going to be okay once we get to July first, with the exception of medical patients now need to be in a registry that they don't want to be in. Um, but there's a tax issue. I believe that you had mentioned when we spoke offline prior to this conversation, what's happening with taxation and medical cannabis,

Speaker 4: so as currently as the taxation sets the rules as they have read, only allow for exemption of sales tax, which means medical patients would still have to pay the 37 percent excise tax, which my understanding is considered a syntax. So the fact that a medical patient has to continue to pay this tax is a big concern. Many of my patients can spend, you know, there are fixed income folks when you're sick, you tend not to make a lot of money, you know, so you're $180 that you may spend a month on your meds is all you can do. So now what you're going to do is on the recreational side, because of the pricing scheme and stuff, something that's 12 bucks now will be anywhere from 30 to 40, which means that your 150 bucks now buys you a third of the amount of medicine that you were getting. Um, so for a lot of our patients who have to exist in that realm, that desire to be pushed back into the black market, they can at least get affordable meds, will be pretty high, but I figure most places will have, like for our organization, we estimate nine to 12 months of existing in that regulation based before I can start pushing prices down or offering discounts large enough to eat up that additional cost. It's we put in,

Speaker 5: alright, so the better part of a year, now I've got to pay a ridiculous tax or I can just go to the black market to get the dosage that I need. I can't get that obviously in the adult use or recreational side, um, for my Ms. so as far as this excise tax is 37 percent, what is the justification? So we understand what you just said that makes sense to me. Why are they saying we need to do this 37 percent? This makes sense. Because why? Why, why does it make sense?

Speaker 4: That really given us a reason why it makes sense. What they said is that their determination and the rules and how they're written is it doesn't allow the extension that take place. Um, we have had discussions with some of the local representatives and stuff about getting it removed this year. Um, they're a little word to us was, we've done enough is this year and there's a lot of stuff on our table. You need to take this up next year. We are not going to look at it this year. So the best, uh, no, uh, the, uh, representatives that we have gone to, to talk about that the LCB has also because they broke the management of the [inaudible] kind of taken that position. Um, but so how the representatives that normally I'll be working with to get these things changed, right? So because of that, um, they've pushing it out until next year because they'll actually have to do a rule change. Um, and then they said they weren't gonna take it on this year. Even if they were to vote and get that in March. It's still another several months before implementation. So you'd be looking at maybe an early, um, aspect of June of next year that would even get removed. Uh, my understanding and my understanding of the rules, it allows organizations to do heavy discounts and stuff for medical patients if they're willing to put themselves in the database.

Speaker 5: So as long as you come into the database, I'm okay if Ben, um, discounts the product so that the patient doesn't have to pay for it. But then of course, uh, ben is discounting and not making the same money on the same medical cannabis study was just last week. Is that about right?

Speaker 4: That's true. Um, and I'm allowed to take the hit and that sort of wrecked, um, as opposed to I'm just not giving the state a bunch of extra money.

Speaker 5: You're allowed to take the hit. Describe what you mean.

Speaker 4: I'm allowed to discount at below cost and that cost myself if I want to be altruistic, but I'm not allowed to just skip the tax because that tax will still get collected and paid to the state. Of course, space value. I charge.

Speaker 5: And so then now let's get into. We've been mostly talking about the, the, the kind of a total structure of state and dispensary, uh, in Washington, in Seattle. Now let's talk about the CC, the CPC as far as your altruism, as far as your philosophy, as far as what you are going to do, what are you going to do?

Speaker 4: We're going to work hard to get the LCB to change their mind about the tax system. Um, we're also currently in the process of a guaranteeing product from farmers. I'm at a discounted rate so that as we put it through the system, it should end up at a dispensary to lower cost anyway and then working with them about making sure that those products are available for our patients. Mr Joe Smith will come in on Tuesday to buy this, do not sell this to anybody else. It's for him specifically. Um, um, will help us still be able to help certain patients. But enn I'm having to finagle and call in favors to make those things sort of happened because people don't want to add that extra layer of what I would consider rhythm a row. Um, in order for a patient to get various needs and even then a lot of these patients are high volume as far as the medicine they take. So kind of looking in the rules and finagling with how the product should be labeled, what it should be called so that I can make sure that at least I'm products moving and being available to specific people.

Speaker 5: You're all right. You're so, you're almost talking about personalized product, how talk about how you're working with the great, uh, because we know, uh, many of the producers in Washington and know them to be great, um, those producers to try to make it all work. You're, you're basically talking about kind of working with the entire supply chain to ensure pricing that works for the patient. Take us through that.

Speaker 4: Um, so we actually got to go to farmers and tell them about us because we're working with a whole new farmer base now. Many of the really cool farmers I used to work with either left the state, um, or gone back underground. So we're having to make all new connections with [inaudible] farmers. Explained it as what we do, a, reprove ourselves to them so that they can understand that when they give me a product at a, at a good price on, we're even discounted heavily on their end feeling that are taking sides, stealing, taking that money for myself. And then charge end. Um, you know, we've done a lot of work with kid patients over the years. Um, every child is different, so we tend to make a custom blended medicine. Um, for them. A CBD product tends to have a much higher cost associated with it. The plant, the plants are fitting carrier, they don't produce as much resonance so the oil returns less, but it's a high need product.

Speaker 4: So I tend to have to pay more for that or convince people that it's worth their while to grow. What is a finicky, difficult plant a lot of times, um, and take that time on their end. So having to work with convince farmers again, which we've been doing a lot over these last couple of weeks. I've been driving out to eastern Washington numerous times. I'm guaranteeing to them that I'm not going to just rob them blind as I move product to the system and then convincing a dispensary that it's worth holding onto this product specifically for a patient and not, and also keeping the price low on their end and things of that nature. And that's Kinda like the, you know, basically having to Redo everything over again. I'm in this industry and then I'm a recreational stores have gone on record saying that accommodating patients cost wise is too risky.

Speaker 4: Um, because a lot of these people, again, they can't afford large volumes that they can't afford high cost. So if your goal at a dispensary to either move large volumes of product or a, he charged high dollar, um, these people aren't your bag, you know, they may consume a lot of medicine, but it's usually at a cost, at a good rate. Even in medical cannabis, you know, many of us don't drive new cars. Many of us, uh, you know, we, we, uh, have to take second jobs or do second things in order to make good, make money to feed ourselves and things like that. So for us, the medical cannabis community always be about supporting itself where and the IFA to world. It's about generating cash flow and that really goes against what it is to help patients. So we are not gw Pharma. Our goal is not to charge 9,000 percent markup for products we produce, you know?

Speaker 5: Yeah. And, and totally understood on, on all points, rather than talking about them. Let's talk about you as far as the center for Palliative care. You mentioned that you're going to farmers and talking to them about what you do. Remind folks, I know you've been on with Jeremy Before, but remind folks, you know what the approach is and when I actually walked into the dispensary, why I saw all of those bottles and why you turn them around and showed me this is good for Crohn's. This is good for Ms. this is good for somebody with PTSD. Take us through what you do.

Speaker 4: So what we do as an organization is we're vertically integrated. So we produce all the products are majority of all the products that are in our store and they tend to be built around patient needs. A big ethos we have here is that cannabis as the original product and then what we put it in is just to get it into the patient. So when I develop a teacher, there's usually a person that it gets developed for and then we make it for a wider base of groups. You know, we did terpene enhanced products before anybody even really knew what terpenes were and that was built out a patient need. Um, we do a therapeutic gel that was built out a patient need and then that one on one interaction with folks that really, it people come into my store, they sit down, um, and they have as much time as they need to get all the questions answered that they have about cannabis and their condition.

Speaker 4: We have first time consults, the last 10 minutes and we have ones that have lasted an hour and a half. Um, we are the place that people recommend people to go to when they have questions. Real questions about cannabis, um, when a mom walks into a store and goes, my child has epilepsy, um, there's a good chance they're going to get sent down here, um, to get help in a lot of. That's because most stores do not produce their own product. They get products from other places and that makes it really hard to do custom designed, um, therapies. We almost, I don't know, compounding pharmacy is a word that's been used for this place. I'm herbalist healing has been a word used for this place from our patient. So it's kind of that sort of atmosphere. Um, and that sort of, I would say dedication to making sure that the patient lives well.

Speaker 5: Alright. And so if that's the philosophy and that's what you do, which it is, but talk about what the feedback has been from the five. Oh, two farmers that you're now talking to.

Speaker 4: Um, the feedback from them is always, well, I know a lot of these guys have taken out loans. Um, so they have all this overhead debt and things of that nature. So there's always the concern around cost. There's always a concern about making sure that they're going to be able to get, um, a worth, a dollar at the end, um, so they can cover themselves. Many of these gentlemen, we're finding more and more folks who are from out of state who have shown up here just to generate large volumes of cash and they're difficult to talk to. One thing we're working with them is a almost like a futures contract where we're able to secure product ahead of time, um, and make sure that they both feel comfortable with what they're going to get, um, and then too comfortable with or making sure that they're going to develop the product we need.

Speaker 4: Um, and for a lot of them it's hard because a lot of them are farmers, but cannabis is a different kind of animal and a little finicky. And the goal for what the product looks like can be different. Um, we consider ourselves resume purveyors. We don't necessarily consider ourselves flower people when we look for products about the resin production as opposed to how pretty the bud can be. Um, so that one to that discussion kind of changes how you grow. Sometimes it can mean less work, sometimes it can be more, um, but most farmers don't, for many years have only grown for pretty flower. They don't really grow for resin production. So it's kind of that sort of discussion to, um, we've been to places where the flower looks nice, but it produces very little resin because the growing environment may not be the best one for cannabis. Um, it doesn't enjoy temperature days over 100 degrees. Um, there are areas of our state where that's pretty regular during the summer. Um, so that one's kind of been a different discussion with them as well as changing their growing techniques that they may have been using for some of them 10, 15 years in their backyard or are other gentleman's now or it's been the last two or three years just in the market in general.

Speaker 5: And as far as a kind of this, this change in philosophy of, of the way that they grow. They're so used to, like you said, you know, oh my God, look at this flower. Isn't it beautiful? Um, you know, now they're kind of adapting to what, uh, what you're talking about as, as far as, uh, the approach and is as far as, um, you know, delivering what you need for the folks that are on board and the folks that have said yes, what, what it described the nature of that relationship as we go here.

Speaker 4: Um, so they're, they kind of get what we do and they're onboard with it. Um, the biggest thing then becomes things like strain selection, right? Um, a lot of them have strains that they have either picked up over the years, um, but the cannabinoid profiles not right for the products we make. So one of our biggest issues right now is getting people the correct strains as we ourselves are rolling over into this new market, um, our ability to move things around as well as to collect the strain database that we've been using all these years into their hands so they can actually produce the correct items for us. Um, they're super excited about that because for many of them, as we know in this industry, um, the strain you have is as important. If not more important than your growing space. Um, and that one's been a tough one because in this industry, many people just grab whatever they could get because you only get 15 days to rollover within once you get your license. So for many of them being able to get a quality genetics has been as much of a burden to them as I'm just producing the product.

Speaker 5: Okay. And so you are weaving your way through this with good partners, uh, you know, with, with, with good farmers and, and you're going to be able to figure out a way to get that personalized product to the patients. I'm even considering this a 37 percent excise tax. Uh, I appreciate you taking me through all of that. What else are you doing? Because I know that you're adding to basically what the CPC does.

Speaker 4: Um, we are, uh, we've been looking at doing a training program and taking that on ourselves since we basically been doing the training within medical cannabis now for the last seven years of the program, the state approved and things like that. Uh, we've been training who's a bud consultants. People who are going to take on a teaching, people about cannabis, we have an amazing brain trust. Um, a lot of it's through experience. Um, in many instances we have had gone out now to doctors and untaught them. The thing is the Internet has taught them because a lot of those things don't apply to how products are actually used. In many instances, a product like cbd, which the molecule itself has a mood elevating and can a act almost like a sativa does, but people will recommend it for sleep, which really doesn't work well. Some people will be up till two or three in the morning. Sometimes I can't figure out why they're not sleeping even though this product, the doctor recommended supposed to do that. So I'm. Part of our thing has been more doctor outreach around that so that I'm. This way people can get good information from their doctors, especially since many of these newly trained consultants that are being put online have little to no experience of actually using the products and that sort of manner.

Speaker 5: And let's, let's actually go there. In terms of patients. I'm going to go ahead and give you conditions and then you give me back what you would suggest for them. So we, we touched on ims. What would you suggest for an MS patient? Uh, understanding that this is just a random broadbrush, ms patient. You obviously would need to talk to the specific person, uh, to, you know, get that personalized medicine. But generally speaking, what are you suggesting for an MS patient?

Speaker 4: Usually for ms patients, we find stuff that's higher in thc and especially a sativa dominant strains. Ms Patients suffer heavily from nerve pain as well as muscle spasticity issues and strains that kind of lay on that side, uh, work better for that stuff. Um, we have a teacher product that allows a micro dosing so they can figure out the actual level it takes to give them pain relief without necessarily making them to hire stones. They can still function. Their day ones were inflammation, shows up more. Or even patients where maybe the MS is an onset from a brain damage issue and things like that, or recommend a cbd product be added in there as well. Um, to help reduce the inflammation and a lot of times it's just about trying it and then coming back and giving us how the feedback worked on then we'll adjust around depending on how that works, but it's usually an ongoing conversation that can take several visits before we really nail the program and for them because they're just.

Speaker 5: Yeah. And that'll be the, the, the same kind of approach for, for everybody, multiple visits. But uh, again, same, same thing. Broad Brush, uh, give us that uh, the, the epilepsy, a patient, the, the um, give us what you would suggest for that person. Obviously high cbd, but give us more.

Speaker 4: Yeah. High CBD and usually we start them one to one. Um, if it's my kid patients, I will make a higher ratio that can be 20 to one for CBD versus thc. A lot of the inclusions, we add a terpene enhancements. We, we use the lemon oil base within our teachers. And what that does is helps a thc and stuff to pass that blood brain barrier easier. Um, and things like that. A lot of it though, is more about timing within that product because some of my kid paid my patients who have epilepsy or seizures all day. I'm may have to take doses throughout the day. Some of them who have intermittent seizures, a lot of it is finding that maintenance dose, um, a lot of it can be pretty close to one milligram of pound is what we found as far as the amount of cannabinoids they need to consume some of our patients where it's a consistent seizure issue everyday. Um, it can be anywhere from three to six milligrams a pound, which means 100 pound child or a 200 pound adult can take anywhere from 100 or 300 to 600 milligrams a day. Um, which is an obscene amount of cannabinoids, death to consume, but also a incredibly expensive. I mean, it's price even on the medical side now for those products. Um, but it, it gets even more obscene on expensive on the [inaudible] side.

Speaker 5: Right. And all that that does is stop the seizures.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Um, that stops the seizures. Some people will get better cognitive ability because the thc will help, uh, with the pathways in their brain as well as reduce the inflammation that some people will suffer as far as the seizures will cause.

Speaker 5: Alright, two more. Um, my buddy with groans. What, what do you suggest

Speaker 4: your buddy with Crohn's? Uh, it's usually a cbd product. The trick with that is that it needs to get down to his stomach, so it needs to be an edible or if it's a teacher or a capsule is a great for those. Um, sometimes crones to uh, um, it's the muscle spasms. So sometimes you can put just a couple drops on your tongue and that'll calm everything down from being so inflamed. Um, and things like that. Um, and we also make a suppository product for when those times when you just can't eat or put anything down. So those have been pretty effective too. Um, especially if the inflammation is more related to the colon area, things of that nature. Um, we work a lot with IBS. I'm in that same realm, which gets attached to a lot to crones. And what we find too is a lot of folks with ibs seemed to have ptsd and so what we do a lot of times just try to control that constant adrenal flood, um, that shows up in that area.

Speaker 5: It shows up in that. And then let's go there. As far as ptsd is concerned, you know, I'm a returning veteran and I have ptsd. I don't really even want to talk about it, but I just did with you. What do you suggest for me?

Speaker 4: Um, we usually suggest to program because we don't want to get them high really because we don't want to elevate that issue. So a lot of times it will stick on the indigo side. Um, it tends to have a very calming effect. Um, we will use cbd, um, enhanced with thc because when you take thc is in presence of CBD, it doesn't get processed in your liver the same way. So thc tends to be less psychoactive so I can get more into yet another product we've been using now a lot more as Thca. It allows them to take higher doses without psychoactivity. And there seems to be something about that that's really calming to the hypothalamus because that seems to show a lot within the PTSD patients. It's that constant adrenal flood. One of my main questions for folks around that, um, even the ibs one is when you wake up, do you start to feel nauseous because a lot of times when they wake up, the first thing everybody does is flat out adrenaline.

Speaker 4: And it's that fear and flight response that causes that nauseousness. So a lot of times we'll use that as a key to figure out when things will start. And then people can sometimes take a dose the night before that's large enough that they sleep super well because a lot of it with ptsd patients is they just don't sleep. When we talk about sleep, it's a fourth level, um, regenerative, restorative state. Most people hang out in to when they have ptsd because their brains are waiting for something to come attack them or an explosion to go off. And then sometimes they'll have a little bit of dreams, but they tend to be nightmares or things of that nature. So what we try to do is push them past that when you talk to cannabis people, a lot of times they don't, they say they don't have drains and a lot of it's because they spend more time in that fourth level, which is that regenerative, restorative state, which, um, as it's a time, your brain will kind of shut down and restart and allows those glands get better in sync, which allows for you to manage those day to day stresses better.

Speaker 4: I'm sleeping is an amazing piece on that shows up for us and cannabis is really good at helping with that space. And even people with simple back injuries, I'm getting them to sleep again. A lot of times they'll just make their lives better

Speaker 5: or just a regular business person that can't sleep. Exactly. Totally. Um, insomnia.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Um, I have a couple of folks that have shown up with arthritis because their bodies literally attacking itself and things like that. And usually what we do is going to back to sleep and those conditions start to dissipate, um, around that.

Speaker 5: All right. So, uh, thanks for proving it out. Another guy, just a cashing in on wheat, the Green Rush, right? Right. Bend. Right. Yeah. Remind me that when my car is 12 years old now, I will say that that's something that's shown up a lot in our community. Um, as I go to meet more of these people, they'll be like, oh yeah, I've been in medical canvas now 12, 15 years. I'll be like, oh, that's cool. As I look over and they bought a brand new Mercedes or the God had this giant

Speaker 4: House they've purchased two or three years ago. So you know, when we think about medical cannabis, especially in Washington state, it was definitely a community driven altruistic aspect to say that you're in medical cannabis and all you've been doing is growing cannabis in your house and selling it to your friends or in the extreme case is growing cannabis and sending it across state lines doesn't ever mean you were in medical cannabis. You were just a guy growing cannabis and you just happen to have a medical card and that was your guys in which to do it. So for us it's tough because we exist in this place where I have people saying those things and only want to do is get angry at them and have them prove to me that they were helping sick people and stuff as they drive off and their Mercedes Benz 500 are being generated 500.

Speaker 4: Right. So, I mean, those things are hard for us in that and you know, I've never charged an extreme amount for my product in any of these places compared to some of my constituents here. Um, our constituents, my associates here in this Washington state and stuff. So for us it's hard to be forced into that place because that's basically what's been happening now with the rollover into this new regulated market is I have to greatly concerned myself with price and value. I've had to take an investment from people and take out loans in order to meet these new regs and build out new spaces. So I'm just not getting taken advantage of by the larger community. Every time they see cannabis show up, the instantly doubled their pricing on me. Um, I've had several people telling me that the only way I could have a store and their location is if I gave him a piece of my company, even though they're offering no greater value than giving me a place to put my shop. So it's been really tough on that side to have, to have to exist or deal with those people. Um, in this space. Again.

Speaker 5: Yeah, well the, the real estate thing is kind of a separate issue, but as far as medical cannabis, you know, what you're talking about in terms of serving patients in Washington, that is where you are unique. You know, the Washington state, I'm really is doing it the way that Washington state's been doing at the long. So, uh, so eventually we'll get there. It's just a, it's just baby steps along the way. Here are a couple steps back every once in a while. But, um, you know, it's good to hear that you have figured out at least how to make sure that, uh, you know, that that medicine gets to patients. Um, you've had to go all the way back to the beginning of your supply chain, change the beginning of your supply chain, um, and then work that, uh, through for personalized medicine. So you're, you're doing the hard work, you know, and, uh, well I at least appreciate it. So thank you for me. How about that? Thank you. Seth. Definitely got it. And we've been getting a lot of things

Speaker 4: back from our patients with the plan that we're developing and they've been super excited to hear that. Um, they're a little put off by the timeline. I tell them it'll take us in order to push these prices and stuff back down for a minute. And really it's just getting the legislation to drop that tax if we can get them just to remove that. Um, I think in that in itself will, will help patients out greatly

Speaker 5: and that'll only take a year. So, um, but, uh, you know, uh, listen as they say or as we say, the cannabis years or our dog years. So, uh, the year old ill will get by here pretty quick. Um, I, I guess it's time for a last question, Ben, um, you know, we, you've been on before, so we're only gonna ask you the one for today as far as the soundtrack of your life. What is one track, one song that's got to be on there

Speaker 4: right now, a song that's really been showing up for me as a, there's a song called it's done by Bank of Odessa and it's all say my name and it's just this lovely song about wallflowers and things like that. Um, and I just, when I get stressed out, that's a song I put on right now and it's just very calming and just reminds me of all the beautiful things that are still out there.

Speaker 5: Kind of has an effect on you.

Speaker 4: Most definitely. Um, if for somebody I have to deal with law, this dress and gave up cannabis recently, it's been a great boon for me.

Speaker 5: Well, we have to talk. Wait a second. You, you said you gave up cannabis recently. Why would you do that? Um, I've decided I need to be super sharp,

Speaker 4: especially when I'm having discussions and the ability to pull up data at will on has become a great advantage to me, especially when talking to these farmers and stuff. We're in a professional climate and uh, not everybody smokes weed all day anymore, so it was much easier to deal with those guys and be a stone myself in order to talk to them and be like that or have to go sit in those circles, smoke a pipe with them to get them to trust you. And now it's not really like that. In fact, they prefer it if you can look them clear headed in the face and know exactly what you're talking about. Um, they appreciate that more than before. So that's been a big change for us to, um, and I'm actually a as far as that stuff goes much happier. Um, and I guess having memory again again would say.

Speaker 5: Okay, very interesting conclusion here. Ben, very much appreciate your time. Of course a keep fighting the fight and we'll talk to you very soon. How about that? Thank you seth. And there you have been. Reagan

Speaker 2: told you it was interesting. Yeah. It's a amazing what's happening in Washington. It's amazing what a medical kind of community is having to hope you enjoyed it. Let me know. Send an email. Engage at Cannes economy, Don. No matter what. Either way very much appreciate your time and you listen.

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Cannabis Economy is a real-time history of legal cannabis. We chronicle how personal and industry histories have combined to provide our current reality.