fbpx

Ep.197: David Bell, Wharton & Kelsey Osborn, Idaho

Cannabis Economy Podcast
Ep.197: David Bell, Wharton & Kelsey Osborn, Idaho

Ep.197: David Bell, Wharton & Kelsey Osborn, Idaho

David Bell, Professor of Marketing at Wharton sits down to discuss the basics of marketing from an extremely high-level. After discovering a bit of his background, we go through a number of industries with similarities to cannabis to discuss what can be learned from folks that have been through a few half lives. Professor Bell takes us through his best advice to cannabis companies new and experienced. But Kelsey Osborne first joins us to share her experience. Facing her seizing child, she provided her daughter with cannabis. As we’ve interviewed many parents like Heather Jackson from Realm of Caring and Paige Figi regarding Charlotte- this wouldn’t be a big deal- but it happened in Idaho. So Kelsey is now headed to court.

Transcript:

Speaker 2: David Bell and Kelsey as well for David Bell, professor of marketing at Wharton sits down to discuss the basics of marketing from an extremely high level. After discovering a bit of his background, we go through a number of industries with similarities to cannabis to discuss what can be learned from folks that have been through a few half lives. Professor Bell takes us through his best advice to cannabis companies, new and experienced, but Kelsey, I was born first, joins us to share her experience facing her seizing child. She provided her daughter with cannabis as we've interviewed many parents like Heather Jackson for Melanin, caring and page figgy regarding Charlotte. This wouldn't be a big deal, but it happened in Idaho. So Kelsey's now headed to court. Welcome to cannabis economy. I'm your host Seth Adler. Check us out on social, but the handicapped economy, that's two ends and the word economy. David Bell proceeded by Kelsey Osborne. Okay, so we've got Kelsey Osborne

Speaker 1: from Idaho. Kelsey,

Speaker 3: how are you? I am good. How are you?

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm. I'm doing well, I'm, I'm happy to be talking to you. You know, I, uh, I saw a news story today. You're our first, uh, Idaho, a guest and we'll get to exactly why that is in a moment. Um, but you know, I, I'm drawn to your story and I want to make sure that, uh, we kind of talk about it. So, so share with folks, uh, exactly what's going on please.

Speaker 3: Well, um, I've been having anger issues in violent outbreaks, this my daughter since she was 18 months old

Speaker 1: from, from her perspective.

Speaker 3: Got It. Um, when she was about 18 months old and she got her mmr vaccination and she ended up having seizures from that, from that time on her, her behaviors and her violent tendencies of aggressively got worse. And um, so after

Speaker 3: a lot, a lot of while of finding counselors and go into different counselors and nothing being done about it, no help for me or my daughter, we had, we put her on risperdal and she was doing, seemed to be doing great on it. Um, no issues. Um, her, she went through her dad's house and she just stopped the medication, didn't inform me, she came back to my house, she's taken the dose issue was supposed to and then I was in the process of moving, I that they stayed with their dad for that, you know, it was almost two weeks and um, October fourth is when I was informed that he took her off of the risperdal. I'm on that night. She was screaming and crying and just,

Speaker 3: I don't know, to me it was, she was tired. She didn't have a nap. She was fighting, going to sleep. The next morning on the fifth she woke up and she didn't seem like herself. She was hallucinating and had, she started having seizures and she was screaming, you know, begging me to help her, that she loved me and her daddy and a Mike and her step mom and just, she just, I couldn't get her to stop having seizures. It was in and out of seizures. And um, I had called her doctor about 10, 10, 30, let him know what was going on. He told me he didn't feel like it was a medical emergency that you would see her in at 1:00. Me Not being adopted, me not being a doctor listened to my daughter's doctor. So I listened to him, didn't, you know, didn't take her to the hospital.

Speaker 3: So at 11 a continued, she was still host meetings. I'm having seizures. I got her to calm down for, I don't know what to say, maybe five, 10 minutes at the most. And I had at 11:00 I had given her the smoothie with cannabis in it. About 30 minutes later is when she was completely, you know, call them. There was no hallucinations, there was no seizure. She was laying down, she was able to lay down and taken out. Um, and then I had woken her up. We went to the doctor. There was a eeg test that was done. Um, they said it came back essentially normal. He called the doctor up in Boise. I'm the, they wanted to see her up in Boise that night for emergent emergency testing or brain nervous testing. Um, they wanted to test her to see if she might have gotten into anything else and at that.

 

Speaker 2: David Bell and Kelsey as well for David Bell, professor of marketing at Wharton sits down to discuss the basics of marketing from an extremely high level. After discovering a bit of his background, we go through a number of industries with similarities to cannabis to discuss what can be learned from folks that have been through a few half lives. Professor Bell takes us through his best advice to cannabis companies, new and experienced, but Kelsey, I was born first, joins us to share her experience facing her seizing child. She provided her daughter with cannabis as we've interviewed many parents like Heather Jackson for Melanin, caring and page figgy regarding Charlotte. This wouldn't be a big deal, but it happened in Idaho. So Kelsey's now headed to court. Welcome to cannabis economy. I'm your host Seth Adler. Check us out on social, but the handicapped economy, that's two ends and the word economy. David Bell proceeded by Kelsey Osborne. Okay, so we've got Kelsey Osborne

Speaker 1: from Idaho. Kelsey,

Speaker 3: how are you? I am good. How are you?

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm. I'm doing well, I'm, I'm happy to be talking to you. You know, I, uh, I saw a news story today. You're our first, uh, Idaho, a guest and we'll get to exactly why that is in a moment. Um, but you know, I, I'm drawn to your story and I want to make sure that, uh, we kind of talk about it. So, so share with folks, uh, exactly what's going on please.

Speaker 3: Well, um, I've been having anger issues in violent outbreaks, this my daughter since she was 18 months old

Speaker 1: from, from her perspective.

Speaker 3: Got It. Um, when she was about 18 months old and she got her mmr vaccination and she ended up having seizures from that, from that time on her, her behaviors and her violent tendencies of aggressively got worse. And um, so after

Speaker 3: a lot, a lot of while of finding counselors and go into different counselors and nothing being done about it, no help for me or my daughter, we had, we put her on risperdal and she was doing, seemed to be doing great on it. Um, no issues. Um, her, she went through her dad's house and she just stopped the medication, didn't inform me, she came back to my house, she's taken the dose issue was supposed to and then I was in the process of moving, I that they stayed with their dad for that, you know, it was almost two weeks and um, October fourth is when I was informed that he took her off of the risperdal. I'm on that night. She was screaming and crying and just,

Speaker 3: I don't know, to me it was, she was tired. She didn't have a nap. She was fighting, going to sleep. The next morning on the fifth she woke up and she didn't seem like herself. She was hallucinating and had, she started having seizures and she was screaming, you know, begging me to help her, that she loved me and her daddy and a Mike and her step mom and just, she just, I couldn't get her to stop having seizures. It was in and out of seizures. And um, I had called her doctor about 10, 10, 30, let him know what was going on. He told me he didn't feel like it was a medical emergency that you would see her in at 1:00. Me Not being adopted, me not being a doctor listened to my daughter's doctor. So I listened to him, didn't, you know, didn't take her to the hospital.

Speaker 3: So at 11 a continued, she was still host meetings. I'm having seizures. I got her to calm down for, I don't know what to say, maybe five, 10 minutes at the most. And I had at 11:00 I had given her the smoothie with cannabis in it. About 30 minutes later is when she was completely, you know, call them. There was no hallucinations, there was no seizure. She was laying down, she was able to lay down and taken out. Um, and then I had woken her up. We went to the doctor. There was a eeg test that was done. Um, they said it came back essentially normal. He called the doctor up in Boise. I'm the, they wanted to see her up in Boise that night for emergent emergency testing or brain nervous testing. Um, they wanted to test her to see if she might have gotten into anything else and at that.

Speaker 3: And so, um, my daughter's potty trained, she's three and they gave her, put a catheter into take urine from her and drew blood and she, we were there for a good five and a half hours at that point. And I was, you know, I was asked the doctor if we could go and like, yeah, her fed and ready to go to boise. And then he called me and told me, informed me that she came up positive for Thc, that they would have to call. He had to call a cvs and then I called my kids, his dad and let him know, you know, what was going on with her, um, with the drug test and the doctor and everything else that happened that day. And met up with him. And then the CPS worker called us and told us to meet them at decay more at about eight, 8:30 at night. And that's when they hit me with a. They weren't going to get me for a felony and throw me in jail. But the, um, the officers sergeant told him to do a misdemeanor. They're not taking me to jail when we're talking to the supervisor or the, sorry, the caseworker for child protective services right there. It came. Or, um, I told, I told her everything that happened and the first thing she caught onto was that

Speaker 3: I gave Madison is exposed to thc which required medical attention, which was the reason why she required medical attention

Speaker 1: and it was presented back to you the, the day in your life that you just lived was presented back to you with different facts essentially as far as it being a treatment for seizures. Where did you learn about that? How did you know that that might work?

Speaker 3: Well, I've done a lot of research on cannabis and I've also seen for myself, friends of mine that have, they provided for their children that are asking that live out of state for cerebral palsy and seizures and stuff like that. And it's helped them within 30 seconds, you know? Right. And then,

Speaker 1: yeah, it depends on the delivery system, but yeah, it, you know, but it can get back to much less than a half hour. But it, uh, it sounds like you were just using what you had and it does sound like it, you know, did work, um, for your daughter. So, so now what are we dealing with

Speaker 3: right now? I don't have. My kids are with their dad. I have visitation. Um, he asked us, he asked to supervise it as my charge for the injury to a child that I pled not guilty on, um, of court for my family, the family law court. I had that on the night of this month and then, and then they have court for my criminal on the 29th.

Speaker 1: Okay. And is your a lawyer familiar with, um, you know, with cannabis in any ways he or she ever, you know, argued having to do with anything having to do with cannabis or. Uh, are we operating in the dark here?

Speaker 3: Um, well he is on the, basically on the line of how did I injure my child by given her the cannabis. Right. So.

Speaker 1: Okay, well, well here's what we're gonna do Kelsey, you've got a facebook page, operation operation, glip dinner. And you know what I, I use told me it was operation glibness, so I looked it up and uh, I loved the fact that it's from norse mythology and it is a, an unbroken chain essentially. Um, and so that's what we're going for is to, to Kinda make sure that you are united. We also in the process, I'm want to make sure that, um, that you're defended the right way. And so I know that there's a fair amount of, um, of uh, legal folks that, uh, the do listen, uh, to the show and it's because cannabis loves lawyers, which is a trademarked by me. Um, so, you know, what I would love to do is drive folks to the, uh, operation Glinton or page. So it's operation g, l e I, P N I r a Glip, Gliffy, g l e I, P as in Paul, n as in Nancy, I, our operation glitter on facebook. Go ahead and send a, you know, send Kelsey a note if you'd like to do more in the way of maybe helping out with some legal fees. Um, let her know how she can get in touch with you through the page. Kelsey, does that make sense to you?

Speaker 3: Yes.

Speaker 1: All right. So basically what we'll do is definitely put this before the 29th so folks can react and, and, uh, and at least send you a message if not as something more so, you know, as far as the state of cannabis in Idaho, how much do you know, you know, how familiar are you with what with what's going on?

Speaker 3: Well, I know the community, I know, you know, over half the community, right. See, I'm not going to be legalized, but as far as the police officers and auditor and you know, the legislation, they're just, I don't know, I guess for it to make a lot of money off their pharmaceuticals and yeah, the prisons as well.

Speaker 1: Understood. Understood. I can hear that you have a friend, uh, you know, you're, you're phoning a friend now, so to speak.

Speaker 3: No, he uh, he, he just gave me right here inside by me. You came in on the congregation? Yeah.

Speaker 1: Okay. All right, good. How's the relationship with your ex or are you guys at least communicating, you know, for the kids and everything like that?

Speaker 3: Yeah, for the most part, yes.

Speaker 1: Good, good, good, good. Alright, well Kelsey, as soon as I saw the story I wanted to make sure that, uh, gave you the platform if you wanted it, operation glip donor on facebook. So it's g l e I, P as in Peter, n as in Nancy, I our operation glidden or on facebook. Kelsey, thanks for giving us the time and we'll kind of keep in touch here. Um, and, and hope for the best for you, you know?

Speaker 3: Yeah. Thank you so much for reaching out. I appreciate it.

Speaker 1: Absolutely. And even if you don't want to do anything, it's worth driving by the operation of flipping or page just to see the kids because they're so damn cute.

Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: You got to Kelsey. We'll talk soon.

Speaker 2: This episode is supported by Brandon branch. Brenda branch provides intellectual property legal services with a focus on the cannabis industry shop, Nat Malik and Amanda Commonly Founded Brandon branch in 2015 to provide nimble cost effective intellectual property services. Brenda branch is proud to offer high quality services with flexible billing arrangements, including flat fees and monthly subscription plans to meet the needs of early and mid stage companies. Brand new branch helps companies with branding creative content and compliance. Go to brandon branch.com/can economy for more detail. This episode is also supported by Eden labs. Even labs is the fastest, highest yielding botanical extraction, a distillation on earth. COAC Bradick says that our health depends on what we consume, how it's prepared for our consumption and the environment. Eaton is a modern, ethno botanical based company that continually innovate efficient systems for the highest purity and quality products. The company was founded from an intense curiosity on the effects of botanicals on human health and wellbeing. The focus since 1994 has been on cure, medicinal or nutritional extracts. Visiting labs.com/can economy for more detail.

Speaker 4: It could be better. I guess like most things, like, like most things exactly, but I'm able to at least put it in one a that's cool man. Give them to this whole podcast thing itself. Well, sure. I mean, you know, but you've got to have bone a fee days, David. You know what I mean? Like you've got a, let's say you're a professor or something, you know, like wharton, right. Then you might have the cache, but that's exactly who you are and what you do. Right? Yeah. So, um, you know, wharton is a, uh, the vaunted institution. Um, sadly, one of our presidential candidates, uh, is an alum, right? Uh, in fact, uh, many members of the family or alarms as well, I think interesting. And so we're going to either go there or a or not. I didn't mean to bring it up right away. We can.

Speaker 4: It's totally fun. Actually, when I first started teaching Donald Trump, junior was in my class. Was He really, really good student? But I have to say very good. Oh yeah. I think you've got either a or a minus, but I'm most impressed with his work. Interesting. Yeah. Did he tell you about his hunting trips? Uh, he did know. I only learned about that subsequently during the election campaign. What do you, what do you think about all this? I mean, just as a human being on earth? Well, I think what's really interesting is sort, you know, the proverbial rock and a hard place, right? You have two candidates, the widely disliked, I think for legitimate reasons on both sides. One of them's going to end up winning the thing and I think people are going to be a little unhappy about, from my point of view of a little unhealthy.

Speaker 4: My point of view is as a marketing guy, as I can see, you know why trump, for example, has the popularity that he did. Because if you think about traditional politicians, right? Um, I certainly have no real transparency into what makes a good politician or a bad politician. I don't know many politicians. The job was pretty opaque to me. Along comes some guy. I've seen him on TV, I've seen his name on hotels. Uh, I mean maybe he's not that successful, who knows? But I think the man on the street like myself can understand some guy buys a building fixes itself that makes me like that, that kind of success I can understand. Whereas I have no transparency or ability to relate to what makes a politician successful. So there's a connection there. And then I think just the general kind of brand awareness that he had the, you know, someone like Rubio didn't have or some of the other characters.

Speaker 4: So yeah. Well No, he definitely had an audience that was engaged if we're speaking to a marketing. Absolutely. Yeah. Whereas the others didn't. And, and in the same way too, I think that a lot of these new brands that we've seen now from warby Parker Dollar Shave club and song through the miracle of the Internet, you know, you can create this direct voice with your audience. You don't necessarily need to go through a supermarket to sell raises. Well, if you're a politician, you don't necessarily need to go. Although trump was always in the media, go through the media to reach your audience. You can kind of speak directly over a social channel and engage without the filter, let's say a w. So he does both. He basically in and there you have, uh, how someone wins the nomination. Um, how did you win this nomination to be a professor at Wharton?

Speaker 4: This is, as I said, a vaunted institution. Not just anyone can do this. Well, I think like many things in life is a little bit of luck that goes into it. So I'm originally from New Zealand to take from the exit, so I had a bunch of friends from Undergrad who were all going to the United States for graduate school and in fact I'm going to phd programs rather than Mba. And I think part of the reason, at least in my case isn't it's free, you know, you can get a scholarship. So very good friend of mine was great student, got accepted to a lot of colleges in the US and I kind of like applied on his coattails and I ended up going to school out in California at Stanford. So I was there for a few years and I had no real intent to become an academic. That wasn't the plan.

Speaker 4: It was really just, Hey, I'm in my early twenties. I want to go to the US. And what happens, I want you to get into that program say is that the institution wants you. If you graduate from Stanford to teach an Nyu, they don't want you to work for Google because it's such an investment of financial and human results and do your education that you're their product. They want you to be a profit. So I didn't know that going in, but by the time I got to the end of my third year and was supposed to go on the academic job market, I was kind of okay with the answer. So. So Stanford wants you to be a professor. Is that, is that what you said? I just want to make sure if you're in the phd program and then if you were in an Mba, gave me a business that you could do whatever the heck you want.

Speaker 4: God on average. I think if you're in a phd program, this kind of an expectation that you will go into, go into academia because it's just such a huge investment that they make you pay no fees scholarship. There's a lot of time that professors spend one on one that they don't expand necessarily with undergraduates or Mba. All right, so the phd is what sets you free and to academia as far as getting to Stanford. You mentioned that you were a young man. Um, and as we've discussed on this show a often a, those are not the smartest people and meaning, you know, you don't really think things out. One hundred percent did. It wasn't just I want to go to theu , s and this is the best institution I get get into. So let me do that or yeah, that's part of it. I think, you know, like a lot of things that happened in life, you know, it's people who approximate to your close to you, you know, and you kind of see what they do.

Speaker 4: There's like a local contagent. So we'd had a fellow from my undergrad. I went to northwestern and I went to wharton and then the sky, we affectionately call him the boy wonder. Very bright guy, still a good friend. He's teaching at Sloan Mit and he applied and he was accepted to Stanford, wharton, Ucla, Columbia, mit, the works, you know, when I ended up going to mit and I think that year they only accepted one student, you know, from the whole world management science, a phd track, so he was obviously very good days with these other guys and then I was relatively young because they are undergrads only three years and I thought, yeah, I'd like to do that thing. I like to go to the US and I was watching TV or romantic notions of California and so on. So I just applied the same kind of background as others.

Speaker 4: Other guys, I was just lucky enough to get in. So when you realize that the weather, the climate in Stanford isn't California, it's not southern California for anyone, not from California. Everybody thinks all the whole weather is all southern California. It wasn't when you did your first day. I showed up as a little chilly, although Stanford, the routines to be certainly warmer than San Francisco Bay area, but yeah. All right. And uh, I mean, you're a smart guy, obviously getting in. Did you do well in school as a, uh, as a kid? Yeah. You know, I think I got pretty good when I was very young. I'm an oldest of four boys and so, you know, sometimes we do the first you were a novelty, right? So my mum in particular invested enormous, if it'll teach you the alphabet, how to spell, how to do basic math.

Speaker 4: Um, I would say as an Undergrad I was an okay student. My grades were probably all over the map from c's to a's. Then I got, I did a two year master's in New Zealand who is a bit more serious at that level. So I think it was an okay student, you know, not were you, did you play rugby or you must. Right. So that is, it's like going into the military in Israel. Everyone's got a. yeah. And I think it's for most Kiwi guys, I think this sort of an aspiration, if you could somehow become an old black, you know, I mean, uh, if you were going to like sport, um, you know, it's an interesting thing because it is the New Zealand all black rugby team, the most successful team in the history of sports of any sport in the world. And you're a professor, you've got empirical data to back it up.

Speaker 4: I think the win loss ratio over the last 20 years is about 90 percent against other international teams. So it's almost got to the point now safe. I'm not trying to be arrogant, but you know, you watched them play South Africa or Australia, but it was just no expectation they're going to lose. And those other teams are really good. Well, that's the three nations, right? Elevated Argentina nail the whole nation tournament. Argentina is actually very good too. Interesting. But I would, I was going to say that the only two nations that probably would disagree with the success of New Zealand would be Australia. That's probably true. That's probably true. They're not that good. But you had those aspirations, but I guess somewhere inside you knew that that wasn't a true aspiration. You know, if I think about my Korean, if I had, if I could be a, you know, a rock musician or an athlete like that will be the, but I'm not good enough at either of those things.

Speaker 4: They play a bit of rugby for funding and uh, you know, play guitar in a band with some guys at work. So what was left, I kind of like school, I didn't necessarily want to go into the so called real world because I think academia is interesting. Safe in the sense that, um, it gives you a lot of freedom. But it also, it's like being an entrepreneur without risk and some scenes because you kind of have to write your own job descriptions to say you're an economics professor somewhere. Well, you got to kind of think up something that you're going to study. Come to some interesting conclusion. Get other people to think that it's interesting. That's kind of your job. So it's inherently quite creative. I say entrepreneur without risk because you know, you're gonna get you're gonna, get your check. Particularly if you're a tenured professor, you, you're going to get paid regardless.

Speaker 4: So it's not like, you know, you and I want your company and the thing could go Boston were homeless. That's not going to happen. So all the business owners that are listening, I'm either a feel, you know, what could have been a or just hate you right now just because you have no risk, at least something which will also be a bit of a downside to it. But I have to say, send me seriousness. Um, you know, one great thing being very fortunate to be at Wharton, you know, it is a great institution. Probably the base part of the institution effect, um, you know, probably the people who are there, you know, the colleagues and the students or you know, very, very motivated people. I think for the most part, really good people trying to do positive things in the world and stuff like that.

Speaker 4: So it's a motivating environment to be part of and something that, you know, you wake up, me a man, I'm, I'm pretty fortunate, you know, I get to sit in the class and then some real interesting kid that was 20 years of age. He's got some amazing idea that's gonna, you know, literally maybe change, change the world to do something very positive. I got a colleague who's 75 who, um, you know, when I first got my job offer, wrote me a handwritten note named a street after him in Israel. I mean, just a really, like an incredible guy. You're looking at the guy and he's like, man, he's doing a lot more than I am and he's a lot older than me, you know. Well then there's still time. Yes. But how did you, you know. Okay, fine. You could see that I'm gonna if I'm gonna be a phd here at Stanford, I probably should make my way into academia.

Speaker 4: When was it that you kind of found your way to, to marketing? Where was, you know, that calling? Yeah. So that you. So my Undergrad was in economics and law and um, my last year of Undergrad I took a class in consumer behavior that I found really fascinating sort of psychology of decision making and so on and because they are Undergrad is very short. It's only three years. I was relatively, I mean just turned 20 when I finished. So I felt like I was too young to enter the workforce. Um, and so what I did is I went back for a master's degree that was focused on consumer behavior and marketing and stuff like that. And so then I started to see the social science aspect of it though I just found kind of interesting. And so what year was that roughly as a back in the 1990.

Speaker 4: Okay. So the 1990 consumer. Let's do it this way. What, you know, describe the 1990 consumer that you were studying. Oh Man. So the 1990 consumer that I was setting, um, and I was studying, I have to say, uh, you know, when I was back in New Zealand, sort of fairly mundane decisions, like how do you buy things in a grocery store and stuff like that. How do you respond to various stimuli, advertising prices. And so the kind of framework that a lot of marketing people use set that say, okay, there's some behavior I'm interested in how much you buying, what brands do you like? And then there are things that managers can effect. They can change prices, they can do promotions, they can run ads. And how do those various actions, how do they affect demand essentially? So that's what I was doing way back then. Um, now you know, in some sense it's the same behaviors, but the way they manifest themselves very different than this sort of digital economy. Well, that's what I was getting at. So the base, you know, that those base decisions remain consistent throughout time no matter what. Um, how much easier was it or how much more difficult was it for a marketer, for a brand to connect with the consumer to engage a consumer in 1990 when there was no, um, yes, it's true. No Internet.

Speaker 4: There was no digital interface whatsoever. Um, you know, the entire face of retail was completely different, you know, was it easier, was it harder? First of all, it's really a great question because it's kind of a double edge sword on the one hand in 1990, you know, when I was a must, a student down in New Zealand and one hand it was easier in the following sense have things like broadcast media that everybody's tuning into. I have sort of channels through which I can easily reach people like the message people I can connect to them. Um, the downside of course is, you know, a lot of what I'm doing maybe wasted it may be falling on deaf ears and so on. So fast forward now to 2016. Um, you know, I'm felling like the say Mike Dubin from dollar shave club and I can start a company and take on Juliana and I can create a really funny viral video that people share and I can sell my company for a billion dollars, you know, that's not going to happen back in 1990 because the other side of the coin or the double edges, I now have this ability to speak directly to people, uh, who may have an interest in me and I can create my authentic voice.

Speaker 4: The thing that's challenging is just the fragmentation of all the different venues through which I could do it. Do I do it instagram, snapchat to the billboard mobile app, you know, so, so there's a complexity that wasn't there before, but there's an ability now to go direct unfiltered to the people that may really be people who for whom your message resonates. And so, you know, as we make our way here, you know, we're really early on in cannabis, but, um, folks are starting to, to, to kind of hone in on that brand message. Yeah. You know, if I've got however many dispensary's, however many dispensary groups in Colorado, you know, I need to decide who I am so that my consumers can decide if they want to be a part of what I'm doing as opposed to, um, you know, in Arkansas where there is no cannabis economy, so there is no need to brand, you know, a much less need to brand here in New York where we're both sitting today because there are five license holders.

Speaker 4: But as we go here and as brand becomes more important, what are those basic brand kind of decisions? You know, if I make my, uh, my, I want to be the Nike, I want to be the proctor and gamble, I want to be the dollar shave club. What am I saying when I'm deciding when I'm asking myself those questions. So this sort of a hierarchy of things that one would go through almost as a checklist or kind of a lead is with stepping up. So the first really critical decision that you have to have safe as you know, to come up with a brand name. I know it sounds rather obvious, but it's very, very important. So the American Marketing Association, they define a brand name. It's a name, a term, a sign, a symbol or a design or combination, could be all of those things and tended to do one intended to differentiate one seller from the other.

Speaker 4: So if you're running a cannabis business, you should be thinking about what is the name, the term, the sign, the symbol, the design, the color, the font that's going to communicate my message, my product in a way that's differentiated from whoever my competitor is. And if we think about the great brands around the world, probably the most valuable brand by most consulting majors will be something like apple. Right? So they have the logo, they have a slightly. I'm not grammatically correct slogan that they've used from time to think. Difference is not exactly differently. Yes, exactly. So, so those elements are really, really important. And in fact a good friend of mine was speaking in my class last week at the Wharton San Francisco campus and his expertise, seth, as I'm in branding hardware products. So he was involved as an investor in that nest product, but who controls your thermostat or is the thermostat in your home and he's a big fan of the name, should be short.

Speaker 4: The name should be something particularly in the digital economy that helps your customers tell your story. So if you go to a simple name like a nest, it's kind of nicely evocative of a home. And then when I'm really enjoying this great product and I'm communicating through word of mouth to you, my friend, it's easy for me to tell the story of, for a long, convoluted, difficult name. You're not helping your customer tell the story. Um, the second thing that's really important, that's a digital consideration now is whatever brand you're coming up with, um, you should be designing it explicitly with photography, video, content and social media in mind. How is that brand going to be perceived visually through those channels? And that was something I think was, maybe they're in the old economy, but it's much more prominent now.

Speaker 5: Now, why would that matter?

Speaker 4: Because I think the mechanism by which a lot of the digital first companies are going to grow the brand is really through the mechanism of social sharing. It's through word of mouth, through people first hearing about you through friends. Um, it's maybe through earned media, which is people in traditional media talking about you because you've got an interesting story. So getting that little fire going or the flywheel is really, really important.

Speaker 5: Understood. On a digital brand. I'm thinking though of the, of the farmer in the Emerald Triangle in California who has been growing cannabis for 30 years. It's a multigenerational thing at this point in my family. Uh, all of a sudden there's going to be regulations, uh, and this is going to be legal and I'm going to. It's, I'm, I'm supposed to tell people what I do for a living. Whereas for 30 years I've been telling people purposely, um, and all of a sudden I have to have a brand as opposed to a just, you know, look at my flower. It's the best that there is. That's why you should buy it at this price. I'm, you know, I'm not going to be a digital first company and am, am I too worry about how things are going to be perceived on video, you know, what should I be thinking? Yeah, I think

Speaker 4: no, those things you might still in mind, but, but maybe even backing up a step, um, you know, there's a notion in I guess in business literature, something called brand equity and brand equity says you have two products that are essentially the same in terms of their physical constituent, but one product I'm willing to pay a premium for over the other one. And that's because of all of the triggers and the cues and the inference of what it makes me feel like because it's a brand. I know it sounds really soft and fluffy. So that person who's that growth 30 years who is now entering a world in which they're commercially visible and they need to sort of signify who they, I should be thinking about three things. Number one, they should be thinking about as the crafting this story, whether they're telling it in a digital or traditional channel.

Speaker 4: Um, first and foremost, what is the functional value that I'm offering to a customer? So I'll give a mundane example from the auto industry so I could drive from here to Philadelphia and a Hondai or a BMW, same functional value that both get me there safely and on time, right? So functional value that secondly, there's a layer on top of that which is the emotional value. So if I drive a BMW, you know, it's the ultimate driving machine as the German engineering. It's evoking a different kind of feeling that I have that I can own. And then thirdly, there's something called a symbolic value. If you see me driving a fancy European car, uh, you might assume I'm more successful and if you saw me driving a vehicle, so if I'm that farmer, you know, what is the functional, emotional and symbolic value that my product and my experience and my history and my story is bringing to my customers, whether that's some intermediaries like dispensary's or whether the end customers and how am I going to tell him?

Speaker 5: Those are the basics. I love it. Thank you so much. This is great. That we were cheating here, you know, we're, we're going to a wharton business class, uh, all through our ears. Um, there are a number of different industries that, um, are a venn diagram, a somewhat overlap, a lot of overlap with, uh, with the, uh, with the cannabis industry. And so I want to kind of tick them off one by one. Um, number one is, uh, a misnomer because we in the industry have been saying we want to regulate cannabis like alcohol regulate marijuana, like alcohol, and that's more of a regulatory pitch. Um, you know, I personally don't believe that these are competitive products. I don't believe that they are, um, you know, think it's different consumers, I think in some of the same consumers, but just like I buy a car and I also buy lettuce, right? However, what lessons can we learn from, uh, from alcohol? So I'm putting you on the spot, you know, when you look at, um, you know, the, the various brands that are in the alcohol space, what do you see? Who does connect? Who does resonate? Who is doing a good job? Who, who could be doing better that, that type of thing.

Speaker 4: So I think that industry historically, you know, like many industries, that was the big players that controlled the advertising message, the brand story and the and also the players who control the point of distribution. They were the big one is indeed. And what's really fascinating, I don't know if this carries through to cannabis safe but really fascinating about alcohol is a great study that I used to show my students in class and it was based on the taste test that was done. I think it was in the United States. Very interesting. So you give people cups of beer, six B is labeled a through F and they're all in paper cups. No Brandon and it's Michelob and bud and it's, you know, we'll let rubbish. I shouldn't say no. That might be. And then one of them is Guinness. Okay. And what people do is they do all the pr wise tasting.

Speaker 4: So you drink a drink, be. And then on a scale one to seven you say, well how similar amb. And then after getting all of these similarity judgments a map has produced and what you find on the map as brains 83, the five that a Michelob and bud and all base, they all cluster basically together and then there's Guinness thing is sticking way out in the right because people will say, well that's dark, it's different and that one's not like the others. And they get that. But then, okay, if you get them to do exactly the same thing, but they drink the beer out of the bottle, those are three completely separate in terms of perception because when I'm drinking bud in the bottle, I'm thinking about those horses, the Clydesdales, the bud light commercial with the toilet paper or whatever. So all these things are going off in my mind that, uh, causing me to have perceived differentiation when I'm drinking aided by the brand.

Speaker 4: Exactly. And I think the same thing will happen in the cannabis space is that you could essentially have people were taking it from the Paper Cup analogy that maybe little perceived difference, but it's the naming, the coloring, the packaging where it's from, the story, the narrative that's going to be just as important in this space. So, so branding a ridiculously important with a beer and you're point being especially light beer, right? Um, of course, by the way on the, in, on the way in to alcohol, of course, the, the, the two industries have a similarity in prohibition. Yes, yes. Staying in alcohol but going to a different place. Wine, which is where I do think that there's a lot of similarity. Um, you know, take us through your thoughts on how that differentiates from beer and alcohol. Yeah. So I think the thing about wine that's interesting is it's a more complex category than beer.

Speaker 4: Um, it's a more complex usage occasion. I would say that the average, this is not to disparage anybody but the average wine consumer or put myself in this bucket. I'm not particularly knowledgeable. There's almost no learning that takes place. Like I go into a store, I look for something from New Zealand, I like the color of the label and you know, that's how I bought it. And actually there's a great book. Some of our listeners may like zero is a good wine region, absolutely for white wine. Um, so there's a great book that some of our audience might enjoy. It's called blue ocean strategy. It was written by a couple of professors, NCA, the French business school. And the idea behind blue ocean strategy is, you know, how can you, unlike a red ocean where all sharks are killing each other, how could you sort of create a product that almost has no competition?

Speaker 4: And one of the case studies they do in the was yellow tail wine. Sure. Cats Australia, that's Australia. I don't like to give the ozzies prompts but I will on this. It's such an interesting relationship between the two. Exactly. So what's interesting about wine, as you know, you have a whole swath of consumers that are really not that knowledgeable. It might even be intimidated by wine. I mean, now the ramps like delectable and stuff, you can educate yourself a little bit, but um, yellow tail basically stood out because it was a reasonable price point. It was actually a reasonable wine to drink and it's like got a kangaroo on the bottle with the yellow tail or a lady with long hair, the seller, so it's easily recognizable. So now you put something in that product category that takes away all the clutter of having to look for labels that you enjoy, you know, if you buy it, it's going to be a decent drinking and that, that product really just sort of took off because it came in with a simplicity that help the consumer sort of get access to it.

Speaker 4: And then one other example in the book of people who are interested was, you know, imagine you and I and went to some investors here in your safe. And we said, we've got this business idea. We're going to go into the circus industry. Sure. Say, well that's sucks. We're not going to give you any money. People are afraid of clowns and what a terrible business. But if we said, you know, we're going to take the whole animal problems, there's so many things wrong with this decision. Exactly. But if you said, hey, we're going to take some element of the circus, same element of a Broadway show, we're thrown a bit of belay and we're going to mix it all together and hey presto, we're going to come up with Cirque du Solei. Indeed, that's a blue ocean kind of idea because it's like it's own little product category.

Speaker 4: So I think there's going to be a big education component to the cannabis industry. How do you, how do you give people the, you know, the Cirque de Solei or you give them the yellow tail that, that takes away the intimidation of, you know, what's the right product for me? What's the usage occasion, etc. So there you have alcohol, wine. I think we agree there'S just more similar. Um, yes, I mentioned lettuce. Let's talk about produce. Yeah. Because there's some of that as well. There's some of the chiquita banana, sunkist orange is, um, talk about what we do know about produce, what has worked, what doesn't work. And all that. yeah, pertussis is interesting because on one hand it's sort of a commodity and on the other hand, you know, there is potential for differentiation probably in today's market you a big differentiation is maybe country of origin.

Speaker 4: Is it organic? Not organic, but they had been someplace like you mentioned chiquita and suncoast who'd been able to create a brand recognition and probably I would imagine not having looked at the data would come out and a small premium for doing so. Now I'm interestingly the New Zealand, make sure you get the right team. I think it was the kiwifruit marketing point, um, went through a branding exercise that I'm not sure it was particularly successful, but I'm kiwifruit come from New Zealand, but they're also come from Chile. They come from Italy that came from California that come from China. So the New Zealand group wanted to differentiate the kiwis from New Zealand and they thought that bitter taste, a bit of visual appeal and so on. And so I think it's still true if you go into a supermarket in New York, the New Zealand ones, brandon is a z, z o zed, espn, and I don't think that really had too much resonance.

Speaker 5: Well now it sounds like you're removing the concept of New Zealand from what you're saying is in New Zealand fruit, you should hammer home the key. You would think so. So yeah. I don't know that that was particularly successful. So interesting. It's hard to do it with those sorts of commodities. That's. So that's a, that's a, uh, something to, to kind of put a pin in because that is a definite similarity. What do I, consumer package goods? Um, you know, you've got your proctor and gamble's, you've got your, your dollar shave versus gillette. Um, what are we talking about there? Now? Here's a great big huge space. You know, I'll even throw in fm a cpg. Sure. Right. Because you don't know what that is. A fast moving consumer goods. Yeah. So, I mean some of it is about the supply chain. Some of it is about inventory, some of it is about pricing, but as far as the branding portion of that, what is there to learn from this great landscape?

Speaker 4: Yeah. So I think, um, if I were out there in the, in the cannabis space and just getting into this frontier sort of economy, um, I would look at two things. I would maybe even from my own personal experience, think about brands that I enjoy and I like and resonate with me and I've kind of stood the test of time because of the quality of the product. So we always say in marketing, you know, I'm a great brand, can never hide a poor product and that's absolutely true today. Right? BUt the converse actually is quite insidious. A pole brand can really kill, destroy a good product and that sort of the other era that's not always so obvious. You could have a fantastic product, but if you don't tell the right story, you know, you're in, you're in big trouble. And, you know, we could probably have a debate about, you look at a company like nike, nike, um, whether or not the issues a better than reebok or adidas or something else, but you might say on the margin they've been better with the marketing, you know, be like mike just do it.

Speaker 4: There's a resonance that they have, even though If we reverse engineered the product that may be better, maybe was right. So, um, so I think that todd, to get away from the importance of the branding, um, I think for going into the space, really thinking about, okay, those old economy brands that worked and why did you like them and what can we extract and learn from that. And then secondLy saying, gee, now I've got this potential to speak to customers directly or I will have at some point. Yeah, when I get the ability to do that, you know, what's the story that I want to be told, um, and how do I want my customers to tell it to other customers? And how do I want people who maybe influences in the space to be representing that story? So I think thinking of those two things concurrently would be, would be important.

Speaker 5: That's the key there. You brought up nike in a, I thought of a when you were saying, uh, uh, a good brand can be affected by a bad product, bad product can affect a, a good brand or um, you know, kind of the, uh, the meeting of those two immediately new coke came to mind. Something I lived through. Just take us through that drY. I that that's a classic

Speaker 4: marketing tail. Right. So what would you, what would your point of view Being? So the point of view on that is, you know, never to, um, to extrapolate, I mean, you should always be doing customer research, you know, it'd be remiss for me to say not to do customer research but, but beware of over overengineering or over extrapolating. So what happened in this coke example was a game coke was getting concerned that pepsi was gaining ground, maybe even overtaking them in some markets. The pepsi generation, pepsi generation, britney spears. And so it was before Brittany Spears. Before brandon. Yeah, that's it. And so the thing that was going on there was there was a perception that maybe pepsi was more appealing because it was a slightly sweeter taste and stuff like that. So what coke did is they brought people into the lab and again it's the old paper cup thing and they had people taste different versions of coke and paper cups, but only take sips now you know, when you and I drink coke, we're not drinking out of paper cups and we're not sleeping, we're drinking out of a cannon.

Speaker 4: So that, that element of realism was removed from the experiment. In The experiment, people preferred the suite of product. So they're like, great, let's come up with new coke, will make it sweeter what they forgot that when people are pouring down that came that drinking route, 66 american freedom, all the values of kg and you monkey with that thing. By making this new Coke thing, you just really alienates and annoy people. So it goes back to a classic, somewhat related, classic quote by a famous from harvard, ted levitt. He said, you know, people don't buy four inch drills or whatever they want a four inch hole like or clay christensen, who's a famous prophet. Harvard today. Sure has this idea of, you know, what's the job that your product has been required to do by the customer? And he has this classic case, very interesting.

Speaker 4: There was a chain of fast food restaurants. He was consulting for I guess somewhere in the southeast and um, they noticed that this particular chain people would come in in the morning and they buy milkshakes or thick shakes on the way to work man cell on milkshakes at 8:00 in the morning. And of course I wanted to sell more. So they're monkeying around with flavors, doing different things, doing customer research, nothing. What if they couldn't, couldn't get demand up. Then they took more of this anthropological approach to research by talking to customers, observing. And what they found was in the morning, the job the milkshake was doing was sort of keeping you busy for 20 minutes and newborn commute. So they made it a bit thicker on the straw thenar and did some stuff to last it. That was a different job when you go in at 6:00 in the evening with your five year old son and wants a milkshake.

Speaker 4: So it's actually quite a profound idea. You know, what, what are, what is your brand being hired to do by the customer, you know, and I guess that is really where the magic happens because how can you ever know that, uh, it sounds like focus group, focus group, focus group, but uh, what are some other ways besides, you know, just continually bringing in a group testing and bringing in a group, testing them a different way, ab tests, splitting them and you know, making sure that, you know, what, what are some other ways? I think um, you know, I'm, I'm big fan even though my own research is sort of more number crunching, quantitative. I'm a big fan of sort of qualitative insights like just talking through to people, you know, why did you do that? Or observing people, um, you know, relatively unobtrusively, like you know, how they're interacting with product.

Speaker 4: So I know thAt a lot of tech companies get into this way, you know, they'll go into someone's home and see, you know, how did they open the laptop, how they tapping on the keyboard. So just having a deep understanding of the use case I think is important. It's hard to do unless you talk to people or observed them, but those things I think are unavoidable. I think your basic point is pay attention. That's basicallY it. Pay attention. Yeah, exactly. And, and uh, yeah, so you want to be the fly on the wall, right? Like there's a famous examPle is a book called marketing failures. I really liked this one. So you know betty crocker that makes the cake shake mix, right? so apparently they decided to enter the market in Japan selling like cake mixes and somebody, you know, some chemists and genius figured out that every household in Japan basically has a rice cooker because people have rice with every meal.

Speaker 4: And it turns out that if you put the betty crocker cake mix in the rice cooker and a bit of water produces a perfect cake every time. So there's, this is genius, this is a one, I'm going to sell cakes out the wazoo, look at this, and people love the taste of it. Whatever. Couldn't sell anything. We know what the heck's going on and people like the flavor. We did our surveys. Well you go into someone's house in Japan, you roast the rice cooker in some senses on psych. Psych reduced too strong, but you know, it's a pretty important thing and the rice has to be really white that I look polished and they don't want some other thing like monkeying with the integrity of the rice cooker and that's why they wouldn't use it. Right. The interesting, right? Yeah, no, absolutely. I, I could, uh, my sister taught english in Japan so I, you know, so I have at least from a distance, some idea of what you're talking about as opposed to just my New York and interpretation of it.

Speaker 4: But um, yeah, it's, it's just as important as the sink, the rice cooker. So you can't just put a cake in there no matter what the cake does. Um, which begs the question, you know, for a marketing guy, he's your brand, my brand, meaning the consumer or is your brand, your brand brand is your audience? That's a great question. I think nail this sort of cocreation right, of the narrative and sort of co ownership of the brand. And you know, your example is a great one of new coke. I mean the people revolted against new coke. They had real visceral reaction because of the ownership stake that they felt, you know, we talked earlier about what did you do to my coca cola exactly. And we talked about, um, you know, mike dubin, dollar shave club, you know, a great guy sold his company to unilever for a billion dollars.

Speaker 4: I mean he created kind of a platform or almost a sort of a club that guys want to be part of this kind of sort of a bro humor to it. There's a feeling of not being ripped off by the man, you know, a like paying 20 bucks for your razors. Nineteen go to roger federer. You know, if you watched the video, he goes through this and there was a real resonance and when people refer that brands, other people, or they unbox the product and they share their social channels, I mean, that's sort of part of the whole brand ethos. Alright, let's, let's go through it.

Speaker 5: a few more examples of, you know, where we are with, with cannabis. Um, one that, uh, that is now going to definitely come to us is pharmaceuticals because, uh, the industry keeps on saying cannabis as medicine. I tend to agree with that theory. Pharmaceuticals I think think that they are medicine and no one else's. So we, so that's how we're approaching this. Um, what now stepping back from what I just said, a brand wise, what have you learned from the pfizers and the bristol, myers and et cetera.

Speaker 4: So I do a little bit of work actually, not too much, a little bit with roche over and basil. And that's an interesting industry because, you know, obviously you develop some blockbuster drug. We have patent protection, you have efficacy, something that nobody else hands that gives you a big leak out. But then in addition, you know the story of that brand, so I'll give an example that I think people will relate to because they're pretty common brands, so, um, and the importance of marketing. So there's a case study, it was written about a viagra when it came out, right? So via grubhub, when it was first launched was really launched as a performance thing. That was the main message I'm sure the people people put out there and then another competitor comes out and it cls and cls basically does the same thing. It's the same.

Speaker 4: Efficacy is a little bit different in terms of dosing and stuff like that. But what they did to position that product since the performance angle was already taken, they developed a whole story around intimacy and relationship. And often that was the majority of cases, female partner who has taken the lead. So if you remember those ads for cialis, it wasn't, you know, at bob hope, bob hope, bob dole and viagara. It was, you know, accountable holding hands we missed out on that would've been good though. Um, and so you essentially a products that are not really that differentiated in terms of what they actually do, but the story that you're telling is very, very different. And that story of romance and relationship and resonance really created a great positioning for cialis in a market where there was already a strong incumbent.

Speaker 5: Well, now here's where the rubber meets the road, right? Is, is that brand story is that, you know, a personality with which I can identify, yes. So, you know, um, as far as creating a brand story you already have, when you have begun your brand journey, whether you know it or not, type of thing. So speak more to that.

Speaker 4: So I think, um, particularly now you know, everything that you do in terms of your communications and also things that happen that you can't necessarily control. So the people who are usIng your product and the context in which it's being used also in some sense define the brand. So, and this is particularly true now because everything that happens gets amplified through social media and social channels and so on. And so making sure that you have a strong narrative that's reinforcing the perceptions and the associations that you want while at the same time it was a term jargon people use in business when you know social listening, what is it that people out in the community is saying about my product and how do I tap into that? ANd if that needs to be a steering tO the left or the right, you know, how would I intervene to kind of do that?

Speaker 4: And I'm one of the things I told you about my class state is a, in the old days, you know, in marketing communication was kind of a one way thing. I'll put an ad on tv on coke and people see it or they don't. Now what happens is it's almost like when you're thinking about a marketing story that you're putting out there, it's going to be an evolving narrative that people react to. And then you want to keep thinking about it. So just like when you make the batman movie, you've already thought about the sequel, the prequel, the pre prequal. You got to think that way in marketing. Now turn, I'll give an example that allison's my life. So if you sold this ad for um, uh, it was a man's coke or pepsi, it's with the net. That would be so upset to hear you. I think it's a pit pepsi.

Speaker 4: You a, it's a zero calorie cola and disguises the guide. The nascar guy. What the heck's his name? Jeff. I'm the which the nascar racer. Oh, jeff. Uh, I know who you mean and it's a hilarious video. He shows and he test drives this part. Jeff gordon. Jeff gordon. And he goes into a Car dealership and he's all dressed and fake makeup and stuff. And the guys. Oh, what are you drawing? I'm driving a minivan and he's looking around this camaro and it's got all. This is way too much power for me. I didn't think I could drive. And he's got a camera in there and then he drives like a maniac and the card. If you seen this thing, it's hilarious from a couple of years ago and the guy's just flipping out, he's going to crush this guy. What the hell are you doing? He's freaking out. And then when they finally get back to the dealership and a big donut, he says, look man, you take, I'm Jeff Gordon, you know, this is just all fake, you know, this was a zero calorie.

Speaker 4: And the tagline is, you know, a zero calorie cola in disguise or whatever. So anyway, you know, 40 million people watch that thing in a short period of time, of course, because it's an ongoing narrative. Plenty of people on the internet said, well, this has got to be fake. There's no way you could do this as too litigious. You couldn't pull this off. And so the second video is a guy who wrote for jalopnik, who was trashing Jeff Golden, that then they kind of punked him. They picked them up on a fight yellow cab and jeff gordon's dressed as um, you know, he's got a neck tattoo and talks about how he did time with a guy in jersey. And then he tries to escape from the cops. Like it's all set up. But, you know, the genius of that is, you know, thinking through the reaction or, you know, for our new listeners, um, isaiah mustapha, I'm the manual man should smell like those, those classic ads for old spice that really pulled that brand up. You know, people mean that, you know, there was a fellow, I remember watching on the internet was sort of a logic gone. He's like, you know, you bring the six pack, I bring the keg, you know, everything that isaiah did. He kind of

Speaker 5: like. Exactly. Yeah, no, that, uh, that, that keys in on a specific moment that keys in and then continuing that story, you know, hey, okay, we've got this big guy, let's, let's keep going. That also a kind of a, uh, a new storied, a brand experience was, uh, you know, where I'm going with this.you oreos, right? Yeah. So, um, this is the, the lights go out at the super bowl and oreos just is right on it. So let's talk about that.

Speaker 4: Yeah. So I think that's a great example of, um, you know, if you want to call it, like social listening or just being aware of context, being aware of the moment and aware of the environment. There's a colleague of mine this, this might be an interesting book or set of concepts for people to think about at wharton. Jonah berger, he wrote a book called contagious, which is all about why certain content is more likely to go viral than, than other content. So this will be a great example of, you know, creating a, um, the right word here, creating an outreach or creating a piece of content or an event that's really in the moment that people are gonna gonna gonna react to, I forget what the numbers were on that, but I think it was a phenomenal, a successful and right, obviously huge audiences watching, watching the soup,

Speaker 5: right, enjoy them in the dark. Something to the effect, um, and just spiked right through the roof. And, and really it was the ad age folks that, uh, that really were, were, were, were quite struck by it. Um, aside from, you know, a hiring a digital perSon and making sure they pay attention to everything and then act immediately, um, how do you kind of, uh, just, you know, keep that or, or infused that, if you will, for our industry into what you're already doing. How do you do that? Active listening if you're doing a million other things.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's difficult. You know, it depends a little bit on the scale of your organization too. So he knows a lot of obviously marketing muscle behind oreos or you know, there was a big campaign that doritos did where you could name your own flavor of the readers, be bold and the one that got the most likes on facebook, I think they ended up making it. So, you know, I tried vegemite as my choice. no, no one else picked up on. We are vegemite, right? So, um, but I think it's difficult if you're obviously a small organization, but you know, I think it's also important to be aware there are a bunch of tools out there that you can use essentially for free that are provided by google and other companies where you can kind of monitor a social listening, not so much necessarily through ed woods and things like that. but there are platforms that one can employ, um, the, uh, connected to your social channels, your twitter account, instagram at least will give you data on how many people looked at those who shared this. And so. And so. I think just staying on top of that as important. Do you have any examples?

Speaker 5: I'll ask the warden a marketing professor of a brand that has been successful with really not too much marketIng at all in words. If

Speaker 4: I just stick to my product and produce that product and make sure that I get a consumer base that it resonates with and just keep giving them what I do and not worry about producing online videos and not worry about social listening and not worry about if the lights go out on the super bowl. What do I do as a farmer in the emerald triangle? Um, you know, sticking to your knitting. Do you have a, a good example of a. I just think it's hotter. You're making your life harder, you know, because if you think about it now, um, there are people out the platforms out there that can really benefit you tremendously if you just put a little bit of strategic forward into it. So a good friend of mine up at harvard business school, great guy there, john dayton said something very profound at this digital conference we're at.

Speaker 4: So I thought it was a great thing I'll share with their audience. So they said in the digital economy, your audience has an audience. So let's say you have a great experience with a product. You have a podcast. You might have 10,000 people following your blog or something and then you say something about it that's extremely powerful. Whereas in the old economy, if I have a great experience with a brand or a product, yeah, maybe I'll tell a few friends, that's great, but now potentially I could tell a lot more people. So just being aware that there were a lot of people know the internet is the world of extremes. There are people who, who are your customers who have an ability to reach other people and so you should just be cognizant of that to your earlier question, to a related question about, you know, can you get away with doing no marketing at all?

Speaker 4: I would say, why don't put a little bit of effort to think about how you could get something pretty powerful in terms of response without too much resource on your own part. And also a great thing, um, that I see a lot of startups that come out of wharton do very successfully, is used the concept of what's called earned media. So if you're doing something interesting, innovative, creative, and the New York times or the Washington post or the wall street journal, cnbc or some gq, you know, mentioned you, and then maybe you hire a few people through mechanical turk or something to email and now you can get a lot of mileage out of that. In fact, I'm male thinking of a good example. so just had a fellow speak in my class. Uh, the compaNies will nebia in e, b I a, it's a shower that uses 70 percent waste water, amazIng product.

Speaker 4: So say, so a shower as a product had new innovation for 100 years. It's like a thing of water propelled by gravity, hits your body right? What he's done or as engineers have done as they create a much wider platform surface of water by changing the droplet size. Now it's like you're showering in a mist, you have a better showering experience and at the same time you ended up using 70 percent less water. So I think they were maybe a number eight or nine most successful campaign ever conducted on, on, on kickstarter. And within about two days of launch, had about five huNdred pieces of press globally around the world, so you're going to get pressed. But with a product like that, and I've got to be a specific type of person to want the product, which brings me to the long tail, right? Which, uh, you know, uh, maybe another friend chris anderson formerly of wired wrote about that.

Speaker 4: And the whole concept was, you know, well, hey, actually, geography doesn't matter and we don't even have to have this inventory because the internet will take care of it. I'll find my audience, the audience will find me on the long tail, not in retail. You, you kind of flipped the script slightly on that with, with your book. Write a little bit. I mean, I really loved the idea of the lone tale, which is, um, you know, as you see that nail, the internet allows the possibility for infinite variety, right? If you are running a bookstore, even here in New York city, um, we could probably only fit 100,000 books on the shelf. And so we're not going to stock the book. That's 101 ways to eat kimchi, know, hanging upside down because it's not going to sell enough for now. So, but, you know, amaZon good stock that book and they don't care if they only sell one unit every two years, um, that might still be profitable to do so.

Speaker 4: So now you have all these markets. We're, the amount of variety that's available is much greater than it ever could be before, either because the products digital, like netflix carries a lot of movies all because there's no constraint of a physical place where you have to store it, which allows people to find stuff that will mention it tastes. So, so they might. My sort of related idea will spin on that is that um, the physical geography does matter quite a lot for how people use the internet to begin with. Okay. So, you know, we talked just a little bit before we sat down and you explained it to me that uh, my experience locally as a human being does affect how I shop online because we've been told for at least the past 10 years that that ain't the case. So why is that true?

Speaker 4: Right? Yeah. So, um, so there's a whole idea, right, that the internet makes the world flat in some sense it does. So by flight that means that you know, you, anyone anywhere can sort of get anything that they want. So I'll give a tangible example that might help a listeners go through this. So you thInk about a company called diapers.com sells baby products online and whether you live in somewhere in Arkansas or somewhere in New York or somewhere in philly, you'll get the same price, the same options, the same delivery. It would be completely flat in terms of the offer that you get. However, the person who lives in the philadelphia suburbs, maybe much more likely to buy product from diapers.com than someone right here in New York city who lives next to a duane reed that's open 24 slash seven. And the reason is, um, my offline options are much better in New York than they are in the philadelphia suburbs.

Speaker 4: Therefore I have less need for the internet. So you do find that the physical location of where someone is still really important because it says who they are, it says what the preferences are and it also says what their options are. Probably because the wawa doesn't carry diapers. Nice. Philadelphia playing, you know, it's funny. Yeah, you were good. I mentioned philly that this carries through and other countries too. So if you go to China, for example, the proportion of income that spent ecommerce online in second and third tier cities as much higher than it is in beijing and shanghai and the reason is in beijing and shanghai, you got a lot of stuff to buy. If you're in a second, third or fourth tier city you have, lance is therefore the internet becomes more attractive.

Speaker 5: Fascinating. What a, what one last piece of advice. I have three final questions to ask you. One last one last piece of advice for entrepreneurs, for business owners, for folks that are really. They're creating an industry, you know, yes. There are many folks that are focused on marketing and doing a great job with it. Um, but, uh, for, for this nation industry, what, uh, what, what last piece of advice would you give?

Speaker 4: Well, I think I'm probably the most important thing, at least coming from my own sort of lanes is a marketing business really understanding who your core customers and in a very deep voice so you should know who your customer is in terms of the characteristics. So by that I mean the demographics, age, income, occupation, location, you should know something about who that customer is in terms of their psychographics, how they think, what their sort of seeking out of the product. You should know who that customer is in terms of the consumption profile, how often are they using the product and the most important understand that customer in terms of what's the coal benefit that the seeking. So just to make it tangible, if I apply it to know the students at the wharton school. Yeah, I could describe them. The roughly 28. The both male and female tend to already have an undergrad degree to do that.

Speaker 4: But the benefit piece is very difficult because you know, some of them are coming there because I want to earn more money, some of them are coming there because I want to learn stuff. Some are coming there because they want to make friends. So ideally any business should be able to understand its customers through those four things, characteristics, socket, graphical, full pens, consumption and benefit that they're seeking. And I would even encourage ellison as to, as you do that, you might want to come up with a profile of like a real person that you think is your customer because that will help drive your strategy. And if you don't have that, if you don't know who the customer is, then everything else starts to fall apart.

Speaker 5: Right. So can you describe that person and if you can't start learning how to describe that person. Yeah. Alright, fair enough. So the, uh, the old, you know, will we be, you know, sally likes to shop and she, this is what she shows, right? You know, that whole, that whole thing. Okay. So the three final questions. Yeah. Traditionally, what we ask as a first question is, what has most surprised you in cannabis? I'm not going to ask you that because you're a professor at wharton, not in the industry at all. Right? So I'm going to ask you instead. The first question I'm going to ask you is, what has most surprised you in work? Then I'm going to ask you, what has most surprised you in life or can then finally, I'm going to ask you probably the most important question that I've asked you all afternoon on the soundtrack of your life. One track, one song that's got to be on there. First things

Speaker 4: first though, what has most surprised you in your work? Oh, just in terms of what I enjoy about it or don't enjoy or. Well, I guess maybe the biggest lesson learned to you through work. Uh, what has, what did you not expect as you now are? You know, this isn't your first year doing this, you know, what has most surprised you? So I think what surprises me is, um, and maybe it's just particular to the fit between my job and, you know, what I like is it that I still enjoy the job and perhaps enjoy it even more than I used to write. So there's always something good to be found and some interesting idea that a student comes up with some colleagues is a cool thing. You have a nice chat over coffee. So I think what continues to surprise me as I find it to be a very invigorating experience and you know, I hope that it's true for many of our listeners to that there's just something about it that's still compelling and so interesting even after you've been at it for a, for a few years.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that is the key to work is making sure that you are excited by it no matter how many years. Uh, what about life? What has most surprised you in life? Well, I think what surprised me about life is, um, you know, wherever you go you can always make a connection to somebody, you know. And uh, obviously I come from New Zealand is right at the end of the earth, you know, it's a small country as an island, as many great things about It, but then you travel and you meet other people who are different cultures, different backgrounds, different ways of life, but there's just some fundamental core that's all basically the same. You can sit down with some guy, you know, as I did recently in the Philippines, I have a beer with a going connected something you grew up totally differently, but there's just a sort of a fundamental connectivity that I though I particularly enjoy.

Speaker 4: Put you on the spot. Do you remember what kind of beer was a, it was a local, uh, because I was drinking local beer. We're going to go. But it was, it was a local bar that they only make iN the Philippines. Speaking of just a to end where we began. Speaking of interesting leaders, the Philippines has a new interesting. They do indeed. So he may be the Donald Trump of southeast asia. He certainly is, you know, and actually a game. I can't even vote. I'm not a, not a us citiZen, I'm not particularly politically inclined, but it was interesting to be in the Philippines that um, you know, when you're on the inside looking out, you know, people actually I think on average seem to be quite favorably disposed to them. And this was people we would meet everybody from ngos to extremely wealthy ceos of companies.

Speaker 4: I mean maybe it's going to change. He's obviously doing some things that are pretty controversial but seem to be relatively well liked. Sure. And this is how many months in a. So we went there as a group, as a half. A dozen of us from wharton was a in july, august. So he was about 60 days and all right, beCause brexit still going well too if you take my point. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So anyway, so the, the, the last and most important question, the most important thing that we'll discuss on the soundtrack of your life. One Track, one song that's got to be on there. Oh, one track, one song that's got to be on there. Well, you know, I do like to play a little bit of rock and roll and so it have to be sort of a rock song. So now you, you mentioned you played, you know, a little bit of rugby, do you also have a little bit of musIcal acumen as well?

Speaker 4: I'm over there. I'm okay. I'm not, I mean my free younger brothers a number three and number four actually phenomenal musicians by filed is like an opera singer. Oh wow. Yeah. I've sort of missed out on a lot of my mother's good pianist but. So they actually have talent. But what do you, if you play guitar or play a bit of guitar? So we play band will play in a bit of a blink one 82 green day, you know, the luminaire stuff that sort of catchy and funding. Sure. But on, on the soundtrack. What's one song? Because i'm sure you didn't grow up with blink one 82. I'm looking at you had to be something that informed that uh, you know, deCision making, uh, you know, so I'd have to go something. You have to go something classic and you know, I'm going to go. Honestly, I didn't have to be something from acdc.

Speaker 4: I think I just saw them recently here in New York city on my birthday. Extra rose was the lead singer. that's still as good as ever. I mean, forgive me because I, you know, I was born in 1975, but axl rose being the lead singer of acdc still is, messes with my. That doesn't make a lot of. That. Doesn't make sense, but one, one tune from a, from aCdc know I'm from New Zealand. Last name is bell, you know, be grew up in the scottish area, so I could say hell's bells, but I might have to go, you know, it's a long way to the top if you want to rock and roll. Here we go. David bell. Thank you So much. A pleasure. It's been a lot of fun.

Speaker 2: So there you have David Bell aNd kelsey osborne. Really appreciate david's time. I'm great. Great. Great information from a learned man. Uh, hope that, uh, helps or at least was interesting. Thanks so much to kelsey osborne for sharing. Um, operation or g l e I, p n I are on facebook and of course thank you for listening.

Read the full transcript:

Become a member to access to webinars, quarterly reports, contributor columns, shows, excerpts, and complete podcast transcripts

Become a Member

Already a member? Login here.

Subscribe now to get every episode.

Cannabis Economy is a real-time history of legal cannabis. We chronicle how personal and industry histories have combined to provide our current reality.