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Ep.199: Mowgli Holmes, Phylos Bioscience & Etienne Fontan, BPG

Cannabis Economy Podcast
Ep.199: Mowgli Holmes, Phylos Bioscience & Etienne Fontan, BPG

Ep.199: Mowgli Holmes, Phylos Bioscience & Etienne Fontan, BPG

Is you’re favorite strain actually you’re favorite strain? Mowgli Holmes is on a quest to find out. If you ask him if he’s mapping the cannabis genome, he’ll say yes- but it’s much more than that, he’s mapping thousands of genomes and trying to understand how they’re related to each other. Mowgli’s interested in realizing not only what the plant does to the people but what people have done to the plant. But first, per his forearm tattoo, cannabis warrior Etienne Fontan is fresh of a win in a battle with the federal government. He joins us to explain how the latest tussle went down. Etienne also discusses the new reality in California now that Prop 64 has passed and how you can make your voice affect the change you wish to see.

Transcript:

Speaker 1: Mowgli, Holmes and Etienne Fontana is your favorite strain. Actually your favorite strain. Mowgli Holmes is on a quest to find out if you ask him if he's mapping the cannabis genome, he'll say yes, but it's much more than that. He's mapping thousands of genomes to try and understand how they're related to each other. Now, there's interested in realizing not only what the plant does to people but what people have done to the planet, but first for his forearm tattoo cannabis warrior, Eddie and Fontana is fresh off a win in a battle with the federal government. He joins us to explain how the latest tussle went down at the end and also discussed the new reality in California. Now that prop 64 has passed and how you can make your voice effect the change you wish to see. Welcome to cannabis economy. I'm your host Seth Adler. Check us out on social with the handle can economy. That's two ends of the world economy now. Ugly homes preceded by at 10 Fontana,

Speaker 3: the entire Pacific core door is now illegal, straight up and down. That was 14. Now this has changed the discussion at the federal level and we can now address it at a federal level because they have to. There's no way you can ignore a interstate commerce. People want to be able to do that within these, uh, these legal corridors and it has to be addressed. Now, of course, Obama said he would take his time with it. Uh, I think that the, uh, amount of victories that we saw a change that point of discussion and accelerates it, right? Hope it accelerates it or we can use this time in this void while everybody is concerned with the trump situation. We, uh, can now use these topics to get into places and start discussions with our representatives and our local people to work on the state level so that I'm in the next upcoming elections. Uh, it started off with two. Now it's for now it's a can we spring to 16, then 32 next two elections. You know,

Speaker 4: just cut there for a second with you being in California. I'd love to just focus on California. You mentioned one, a piece of, of 60 Ford that you'd like to change your, um, you know, work on what else? What else did 10, 64, um, is a, is necessary for a change as far as you know, this being day one of actually working on writing a lot

Speaker 3: limited issue. If you're allowed six plants, you can grow more than an house six plants. So we have, we have an issue right there of dichotomy on top of that. I

Speaker 4: outside of the home though. Yeah, I thought it was one ounce outside of the home.

Speaker 3: On your other people who travel or comes in now for patients that you can still travel with your amount to come see me because people come with more than announced when they come to Berkeley patients group. That's illegal legal because it's all left intact to 15 is so for us, we now have to look at taxation and non taxation because here in the state of California, you can now the tax exempt from paying over the counter tax, which in Alameda county was nine percent and if you have a state card, which is the only way you can receive that discount due to how 64 is written,

Speaker 3: um, you can have that situation now with that could also be lobbied to change for recommendation in the future as opposed to a strictly estate card. However, the state of California wants the state card because it raises revenue from the generation of that card to fund the program. So these are things we have to work within the confines of our state, um, as well as with 64 passing. And it forces a medical cannabis law that was just passed by the stage, which is a regulatory situation which is a, it was a Murcia which has now been changed to a Mc say which is the medical cannabis regulation and safety act. And that is going into effect in 2018. And that was solidified under this prop 64. So we are very fortunate that the state has representations for that as a former head of the ABC for the State of California is the now head of our candidates plan taskforce at.

Speaker 1: Mowgli, Holmes and Etienne Fontana is your favorite strain. Actually your favorite strain. Mowgli Holmes is on a quest to find out if you ask him if he's mapping the cannabis genome, he'll say yes, but it's much more than that. He's mapping thousands of genomes to try and understand how they're related to each other. Now, there's interested in realizing not only what the plant does to people but what people have done to the planet, but first for his forearm tattoo cannabis warrior, Eddie and Fontana is fresh off a win in a battle with the federal government. He joins us to explain how the latest tussle went down at the end and also discussed the new reality in California. Now that prop 64 has passed and how you can make your voice effect the change you wish to see. Welcome to cannabis economy. I'm your host Seth Adler. Check us out on social with the handle can economy. That's two ends of the world economy now. Ugly homes preceded by at 10 Fontana,

Speaker 3: the entire Pacific core door is now illegal, straight up and down. That was 14. Now this has changed the discussion at the federal level and we can now address it at a federal level because they have to. There's no way you can ignore a interstate commerce. People want to be able to do that within these, uh, these legal corridors and it has to be addressed. Now, of course, Obama said he would take his time with it. Uh, I think that the, uh, amount of victories that we saw a change that point of discussion and accelerates it, right? Hope it accelerates it or we can use this time in this void while everybody is concerned with the trump situation. We, uh, can now use these topics to get into places and start discussions with our representatives and our local people to work on the state level so that I'm in the next upcoming elections. Uh, it started off with two. Now it's for now it's a can we spring to 16, then 32 next two elections. You know,

Speaker 4: just cut there for a second with you being in California. I'd love to just focus on California. You mentioned one, a piece of, of 60 Ford that you'd like to change your, um, you know, work on what else? What else did 10, 64, um, is a, is necessary for a change as far as you know, this being day one of actually working on writing a lot

Speaker 3: limited issue. If you're allowed six plants, you can grow more than an house six plants. So we have, we have an issue right there of dichotomy on top of that. I

Speaker 4: outside of the home though. Yeah, I thought it was one ounce outside of the home.

Speaker 3: On your other people who travel or comes in now for patients that you can still travel with your amount to come see me because people come with more than announced when they come to Berkeley patients group. That's illegal legal because it's all left intact to 15 is so for us, we now have to look at taxation and non taxation because here in the state of California, you can now the tax exempt from paying over the counter tax, which in Alameda county was nine percent and if you have a state card, which is the only way you can receive that discount due to how 64 is written,

Speaker 3: um, you can have that situation now with that could also be lobbied to change for recommendation in the future as opposed to a strictly estate card. However, the state of California wants the state card because it raises revenue from the generation of that card to fund the program. So these are things we have to work within the confines of our state, um, as well as with 64 passing. And it forces a medical cannabis law that was just passed by the stage, which is a regulatory situation which is a, it was a Murcia which has now been changed to a Mc say which is the medical cannabis regulation and safety act. And that is going into effect in 2018. And that was solidified under this prop 64. So we are very fortunate that the state has representations for that as a former head of the ABC for the State of California is the now head of our candidates plan taskforce at.

Speaker 3: They're doing regional discussions currently. And the great thing is people and growers and dispensaries and patients are showing up in there talking to them and they're actively listening to us. And so they're out there gathering information because they realized that they don't know cannabis and that they want to maintain medical cannabis under 2:15. So they're listening to us to how things are so that they can adjust things that are for us in the future can guarantee it's going to be good. But this is the part of that eternal vigilance is the price of liberty that we have to stay on top of things and stay in touch. So people who are listening, you know, joining the BMM are, which is the, uh, the states bureau of medical marijuana, again, on their list to get on our email list so you can know when they're coming regionally. So you can be part of the discussion or hear what's going on or contribute. There's a certain amount of time until 2018, so this goes into effect. So they're trying to learn from us now. So there's many voices that can contribute to the diversity that we wish to see the better. For All.

Speaker 4: That's something that, you know, of what you speak, you were an activist way back when. How important is it for folks that are in the industry or care about the plant? Um, two, to really engage and to, and to be a part of, uh, you know, uh, the, the civic duty goes further than just voting, doesn't it?

Speaker 3: Oh, without a doubt. Because with what we saw, the change that happened yesterday, we now have eight states that are illegal. You now have 42 other states that need or desire that change. So I've victories gave those 42 other states hope that now we have to give our time, our money, our energy to make those hopes are reality. And ends up coming. Elections arrived together at a point in history where we finally can stop saying, not in my lifetime and have changed the discussion too, you know, it's legal here. So if he wants to, it's time to end the fighting and the attacks that we've dealt with these issues in the states and for all of us to join together to fight for a common enemy, which is prohibition now more than ever as we have. We have to be the change we wish to see. Right?

Speaker 3: So it's more than just casting in the validates getting active, it's finding these organizations, there's different state organizations. There's the national cannabis industry association on the national level, which Robbie's a congress and hat represents over a thousand businesses in the United States. Here in California. We have a California Cannabis Industry Association. You've got regionals, have like, uh, a certain, uh, that Humboldt Grower's association, Mendocino Growers Association, um, that are organizing currently so that they can protect things like Napa protected wine. So not to say something's from Napa Valley has actually grown in Napa valley. So the same thing will apply for Mendocino and for Humboldt because they want to protect the history that they have and use it that as tourism dollars to bring people and to sustain their reality is because even though we're gonna have, you know, large scale agricultural cannabis in time, we have five years now for a small growers to compete and make themselves large.

Speaker 3: So we're going to see people go out there, here in the 2017, 2018 to take up that challenge in California as well as in Nevada where it's now legal and continuing in Massachusetts and in Maine. Uh, now we have coast to coast cannabis. The glass ceiling of the south is crack with Florida being medical marijuana and Arkansas as well. So this discussion has changed around the entire United States. So your time and energy and voice now more than ever can affect the change that you wish to see locally that I can spread to regionally that can go across the state. And next thing you know, here we are in the United States where it's potentially in the future.

Speaker 4: There you go, and you did mention bpg Berkeley patients group. You also had a pretty big week just with, uh, with your business. Um, please share a most folks will know already, but share what, uh, what went down my friend.

Speaker 3: Well, we have a started back in 2011. The United States government came after Berkeley patients group by saying that we were 980 some odd feet away from a French school by the way the crow flies if you walked it by the regular walking of the season of the using the streets. It's over a thousand feet. But the United States governments, federal attorney took that as an opportunity in 2011 to forcibly evict us from our original location of 27 or 47 San Pablo Avenue by going directly to the bank and our landlord saying if he did not remove these tenets, we're going to take your bank entirely and we're going to take that property from you, Mr. Landlord. That forced us in 2012. We had to negotiate a closure of that location and May 1st. And we closed that location and reopened as a delivery service and found a new location 23, 66 on Pablo Avenue in Berkeley, California.

Speaker 3: And Atlanta was a Ra and had to be built up. And we did that. And we opened Berkeley patients group, uh, as a street location, uh, December twelfth, 2012. Shortly after we had opened that location, the government came again after giving us assurances that if we had moved, they would leave us alone. Melinda Haag, who has been the federal attorney of the United States government, then came after my current landlord to seize the property and the victus. So, uh, using the jurisdiction previously saying that, uh, we would get a k through eight school too close to it. They now use the arbitrary line that we were about within a thousand feet of a daycare center or a preschool, which of course they are not part of the, uh, the laws. But the government was drawing these arbitrary lines. So I'm against many people's, a good judgment. I decided to sue the federal government starting in 2013 and after many years of fighting a little vacation last week, the US government related and I hold in my hand a signed order here by the honorable us district. Judge John Has Tiger that basically says, and it's ordering this dismissal that, uh, the United States of American claimants and Nala and the Berkeley Patients Group of files, stipulation of dismissal dated October 30, first 2016 sitting that they have agreed to a settlement of this stipulation is effective with that court order pursuant to federal rules of it, blah, blah, blah, blah. This case is dismissed and that happened to be on the 17th birthday. Exactly. A Berkeley patients group.

Speaker 5: Happy Birthday man. You know, you've had a, a big couple wins here, so congratulations on those.

Speaker 3: We appreciate your time and what you're doing there. And we're humbled by our successes. But now we have to roll up our sleeves and get back to a more work to do.

Speaker 5: That's exactly it. At 10, do you have a song for the soundtrack on your way out here for today?

Speaker 3: Um, well it would be the law, but the lyrics has to be changed, but I won by the class,

Speaker 5: by the class. That'll do at 10 Fontana. Thanks so much man. See? See very soon, I'm sure.

Speaker 3: Right.

Speaker 5: This episode is also supported by Focus. Focus is working on independent and international standards while offering third party certification for cannabis businesses. The foundation of cannabis unified helps build

Speaker 1: your business into the best it can be. Focused is not a regulatory agency so they don't engage in enforcement. Rather the organization has in place to help improve operational efficiencies, decrease operating expenses, and ultimately increased profit focus will help you build your business in a sustainable way, guarding against risk and liability all while protecting your Ip. Go to focus standards.org. Mowgli, Holmes, Mowgli. You are our first listener suggested guests. So listener reached out to me and said, you got in, you got to interview this guy, and so, so here we both are. So thanks so much for mastic.

Speaker 5: I wonder who it was. That's great. That's like being. That's like being a song requested on radio. That's great. Yeah, exactly. You are a, you are today's uh, I want to pick the right song. What would be the right song for you? You know what I mean? Like, what would,

Speaker 6: I don't know how, but remember that, that song by Thomas Dolby, she blinded me with science.

Speaker 5: There you go. That is, that is perfect. Thomas dolby certainly applies. So what the hell are you guys doing? I mean, I went to the website, I did the whole galaxy thing, which we'll get to in a minute. Um, but I mean this is first off the scope of this project is, is enormous and basically you're mapping the cannabis genome is that, is that plainly said, is that accurate? So when people

Speaker 6: say that sometimes we let them say that because that somehow seems to ring a bell in people's minds,

Speaker 6: but that's not really what we're doing. I mean we, we actually are doing that, but that's just one of the things we're doing. So when, when you say you're mapping the genome, that's what they did in the human genome project. When they tried to read every letter of the, of the book, that is the human genome, you know, they, they took one person's genome, really all the DNA letters in that person's body and they tried to string them all together. We are trying to make a big reference genome like that where we're mapping the cannabis genome and we've actually just, we've done an okay job and we've actually just released that publicly last week, um, but the galaxy is a project where we're mapping thousands of genomes and trying to figure out how they're related to each other. So instead of mapping one genome, it's more the kind of population genetics work that scientists do and they go around the world and they take DNA samples from people in Africa and people and Asian people in northern Europe and then they compare them all and say how are these people related and can we figure out how they migrated and how humans evolved by looking at how they're related.

Speaker 6: So that's really a population experiment. So the, the mapping, the, uh, the cannabis genome, that's the easy part. Is that what you're telling me?

Speaker 6: Well, actually no, it's turned out the other way, right? It's a really crazy complicated genome and getting one beautiful version of it that we can just sort of lay out and compare it to other ones, but it's totally detailed. You know, where you can see here's the gene for Thca synthase on chromosome four and oh, here's another copy of it on bizarrely on chromosome seven and you can see where things are and what they're doing. That kind of map has been really, really hard to make because the genome is, it's it, it just happens to, it's a crazy plant and it has a crazy genome. Alright, so then let's, let's start with what you did just do. You said you're released, uh, what you said last week, although since this is a podcast where it doesn't really matter, we happen to be talking to each other, uh, in what is November of 2016, what did you just release?

Speaker 6: What did you just accomplish? Well, so accomplishing and then releasing that. We're two totally different things. So we, um, we've been working, we've been working for a long time on a beautiful reference genome doing using a new technology that gives you long sequencing reads and is meant to make it easier to assemble full beautiful genomes. Um, we have a version that is by some measures about 10 times better than the previous existing public cannabis genome. It. Let me stop you there. What, why and how can you measure the fact that it's 10 times better than what we had? Preexisting. Well, what are you actually saying there? So, um,

Speaker 6: if a plant has 20 chromosomes and you did a perfect genome assembly, you would have 20 segments, you know, you'd have the DNA sequence from the one end all the way to the other, of each chromosome. And when you assembled it all, it wouldn't assemble into one thing. It would assemble into 20 things because the chromosomes are separate, right? Um, you know, you can picture the, those sort of photo micrographs or, or microscopy images of human chromosomes that you sometimes see where they're all, you can see the x and the y and they're all, I don't know, some people have seen those anyway, each one of those kind of gets its own assembly and when you've got a good assembly and assembles into the right number, the same number of chunks as you have chromosomes. Uhm, so cannabis has a 20 chromosomes think and the previous existing public assembly was made with short reads and I think it had 100,000 different chunks and assembled in 100,000 different trucks in those chunks couldn't be assembled together. So it was, it was just like lots and lots and lots of little tiny pieces that they couldn't figure out how to put together. So we don't know where any of them are on what chromosome. And, and you can use different measures that tell you what's the average size of those chunks. And our average

Speaker 6: chunk size is 10 or 20 times better, something like that. So it's just one of the ways that people measure this, it's going to be a lot more useful because it's more complete than the previous assembly, but it won't really be useful until we get it finished, get all the little details ironed out, get an annotated so people can just go into it and see what's what. And so we're working on all of that, but we've also been working with this group called the open cannabis project that is trying to put a lot of data in the public domain and so we recently just dumped the genome data as well as all our sequencing data for individual samples into the public domain and link to it through their website or their nonprofit.

Speaker 5: Okay. And so, you know, when, how long did this, initially, this initial, you know, kind of leading up to this release, how long did that take?

Speaker 6: I mean, we've been working on the genome assembly for a year with a lot of long pauses for technical hassling. We've been working on the evolutionary study where we've sequenced right now about a thousand samples. Um, we've been working on that for two years and you know, collecting DNA samples from all over the world and sequencing them and, and then we sequence them all again because we weren't happy with the first way we did it and, and building this big three dimensional map that shows how they're all related. That's been a two year project.

Speaker 5: Okay. All right. So the, the genome is the kind of the single plan, you know, what's, what's its makeup, correct me when I'm wrong. And then the evolutionary project is, is how each of the strains are related. Right. And so you sequence the genomes of each of those strains to figure out how they're related, but you don't sequence them at anywhere near the detail. Right. Okay. So what, um, what did you learn, um, with your 10 times better than a sequencing than what we had initially? Um, that surprised you most

Speaker 6: wait. So let's forget about the genome for a second. We haven't learned a damn thing from it yet because we haven't had any time to look at it enough. And one reason why people don't normally just published genomes right away is because they want to take some time and look at them and play with them. I mean, we haven't had the to do that really, um, you know, we noticed some other bioinformaticians out there who are finding interesting stuff struggling with the current existing data. Um, and so, you know, we're gonna be working with them and we're going to start to be looking at it, but we just made it public. Hopefully the, the collaborative magic of science will let other people start working on it. And, and as a community we'll all figure stuff out. Um, on the, on the population project, the finalist galaxy.

Speaker 6: Um, we've learned a lot. I mean, we've learned a lot about different varieties. We've learned a lot about how naming works in the industry. We've, um, you know, there's lots of little stories that have come out about how different varieties are related to each other. It is still very far away from being, from having the, the depth of data that we need to answer real scientific questions about evolution. So we have all of these old samples that are called land races that come from specific parts of the world and we're starting to collect some more ancient samples and we, and we have samples from pharmacy bottles from the 19 thirties in the US. Um, and we, we want to get enough data that we can tell a story about how the plant evolved, you know, how it traveled around the earth with humans and, and we're, and we're very far away from being able to do that still.

Speaker 6: It's much more now a picture of how the current we'd industry is wacky about renaming things and how the legend and the lore about famous strains matches up with reality and things like that. But the real evolutionary history of the planet that we want to get at. I mean, this started as an academic study. We're doing it in collaboration with the American Museum of Natural History and um, a couple of important cannabis researchers. But, uh, getting to that data, the really interesting scientific data we're going to need about 10 times as much sample density or we're going to need a lot of older samples before we start to be able to say, okay, the plane was domesticated in Central Asia. Like we thought first it went to northern India, then it went to northern Africa, then it went to Spain and the conquistadores brought it over the 15 hundreds and then all of that pharmacy stuff in the thirties came from that. Or maybe that came from Chinese immigrants and then that stuff disappeared and was replaced by stuff from tie in Afghanistan in the, like we have kind of a guest that what the story is, but we're a ways away from being able to prove it.

Speaker 5: Fair enough. And, and, uh, you know, we will hopefully stay in contact with you so that you can tell us, uh, you know, well, you can tell us about the evolution as the evolution evolves for you at least. But, you know, while we have these snapshots in time, it sounds like, um, what, what kind of anecdotes can you give us, you know, specifically 19 thirties in the US. What have you learned about, you know, what we were using, what we had, how we were using it.

Speaker 6: So sadly have all this stuff I just mentioned the stuff in the thirties we don't have on the galaxy because what we have is we have all these amazing samples from these pharmacy collections,

Speaker 7: but

Speaker 6: each one of them is like a different, it's like a weird pill or a compound or some viscous black goo in the bottom of a bottle. They were all taken off the. And so they, they were all taken off the pharmacy shelves in the Nineteen Thirties when the marijuana tax act was passed and effectively illegalized cannabis. Um, and then instead of being destroyed, some of these samples were saved and they've been assembled by collectors. And so we have access to this amazing collection. Um, but each one of these weird old samples requires its own custom DNA extraction technique. So working through them has been a lot of work. And it's, it's happening slow. I, I can't wait to see what's in there, but it's going to be a little while until we have enough bandwidth to get the DNA at all of them. Got. I'm so, so we don't know. We don't know much about those. The interesting thing about those bottles though is that, I mean they were boxes and bottles and tinctures and pills and, and, but on the outside of the pharmacy bottles, they all had the same indications that everyone's using cannabis for today. I mean, there were literally hundreds of cannabis based medicines in pharmacies in the US, in the, in the end of the 18 hundreds in the early part of the 19 hundreds.

Speaker 6: And the indications were Glaucoma, insomnia, anxiety, and it was, it was touted as an aphrodisiac on many of the boxes. So it was the same stuff that people are using it for today.

Speaker 5: And so, yes, and I think that, uh, there are many folks that listen to this, that aren't surprised by that at all and many that do know it, many that have pictures of those, um, you know, same, same bottles on their walls. For instance, Debbie Goldsberry in, at a magnolia in, in Oakland. Um, give us a sense though of a, you know, of, of information that you have been able to ascertain. In other words, you are on a journey right now, um, to find out, you know, uh, the, this, this everlasting timeline. Um, you know, what, what information do you have, what, what have you come across that is, that is knowable. And, uh, that you do know.

Speaker 6: I think the frustrating thing to our scientific collaborators is that the stuff

Speaker 8: that we're learning, like I said, is less illuminating about the deep evolutionary history of cannabis and more illuminating about the history of sour diesel and girl scout cookies and Oge Kush and, and, you know, so we're, we're starting to get a sense of what's happened with the strain naming game. Take us through it. We want in particular for instance, well, so we, so we always knew that people went when varieties were hot, people would rename them or people would rename other stuff, you know, so when girl scout cookies was hot, a lot of stuff got called girl scout cookies because it would make it move quicker. Right? Right. And we. So we expected that the varieties that came into our data set would be misnamed and what we hoped was that the data would clarify that. And, and it hasn't, it hasn't. Right? So there are cases where you can tell the real thing so that you know, if you look at sour diesel, there's this absolutely huge cluster of sour diesel and, and in that the center of that cluster is Aja sour diesel that we got from a friend of age anyways.

Speaker 8: And so it matches up with legend and lore in the right way. It's related to chem dog and the way that you would think it just, if you, if you know anything about cannabis and you look at this, you can tell that that's the real sour diesel cluster now for girl scout cookies. And so now if we get a sample, we can get it in, we can say, hey, this is, this is the real thing. Now for girl scout cookies, there's one big cluster as well. But the funny thing is that there's, there's a, there's a bunch of outliers, you know there's, there's other girl scout cookies or things related to cookies scattered around the galaxy, the map. And usually we know those are probably just renames right? Probably the big cluster is the real thing and the random ones are things that got randomly renamed.

Speaker 8: However, the supposedly parents at girl scout cookies or Cherry Pie dog and Durban poison and we don't show any relationships between those in the big cluster. But there is one girl scout cookies out there or one cookies variety out there on the edge that has a direct first degree relationship to Cherry Pie. So maybe that's the real one. And maybe this other big cluster was some guy who had incredible marketing and convinced everybody that he had girl scout cookies. And at a certain point, I mean, what does it even, what's the difference? Even, I mean if the thing that everyone knows is girl got cookies is this thing, but the thing that fit with the original story is this other thing, I mean, which is the real one it. So those are scientific questions. We, we just can't answer them scientifically. Those are questions that the community will have to answer and so already we're finding that people are testing stuff with us and then when they get the results they're like, oh, I really shouldn't call that that.

Speaker 8: Let me rename it to what it obviously should be called. And I guess our hope is that enough of that will happen, that eventually the mess will clarify and we'll start to see what's happening and as we get land races on, ultimately we'd like to be able to say I'm this sample is 30 percent times 20 percent Colombian and you know, 50 percent Panamanian. That's like what 23 and me does. When they look at genetic data like this for humans, we really want to be able to do that. Right now the data, when you break it down into clusters, we can tell you, well you have a lot of contribution from the total land raised cluster and it looks like you're like 30 percent from the skunk cluster, but that's just the way that the clustering breaks. Now we can't tell you yet, you know, what your actual geographical origins are, but it just getting closer and closer with every piece of data that we add on there.

Speaker 5: All right. And I understand it is a journey, but to take that, um, that not scientific question and ask a scientist. So you know, if one isn't girl scout cookies probably in one is probably, um, and you say it's up to the community to kind of figure it out. Can you give another example of where that has happened? You know, whether it be with, you know, a fruit or a vegetable, whether it be with a type of animal, um, another plant. Is there another kind of analogous, you know, thing where seeing like this has happened,

Speaker 8: you know, so there are only a couple of places where it could have happened and I should read more about them to find out how it went down, but it, but it's fair to say that what's happening with cannabis is unique in the world. There's never been a plant that's this diverse, this spread all over the world. This recombined had this much sort of nonprofessional but intensive breeding happen. And, and now we have, you know, there's probably 10 or 20,000 unique varieties and there's so many people doing so many things about the name and there's no one watching anything in, in, in any systematic way. And so I would say we've built a clusterfuck here that is unprecedented, fair enough. And we can look at the scientific modeling clusterfuck of scientific yet. So, so actually that's like when you look at the difference between an evolutionary tree, which shows you how species separate as they evolve and branch away from each other, um, or, or ways to visualize what happens within single population. That's interbreeding the technical term for that is a clusterfuck. So yes, and that's why the galaxy, it looks the way it does because it's one, it's not a tree, it's not branching, it's just a tangle of interbreeding. And you can see that happening when you look at it. So, so wine has been interesting, right? There's all these different varieties of one way more than people know, people who have done population genetic studies like this online. And it's really interesting how the different varieties are related

Speaker 8: and people are sketchy about it as well. I mean there's, it turns out there's a lot of wine that, that is mislabeled or that people try to pass off as one grape when it's another group. Um, and you can actually go and get a genetic test like we offer for cannabis. You can get that for one.

Speaker 7: Um,

Speaker 8: so I know, but there have been countries who were paying attention to this stuff and certifying varieties for 400 years, you know, so it's not as much of a mess.

Speaker 5: You with wine you mean? Yeah. Yeah. So I, I have content that not only is the plant and the consumer most like a, a, you know, a grape or a wine enthusiast. I also see the two industries kind of growing up similarly. Um, from a scientific perspective, you've kind of opened the door. What would you add or deny? I guess as far as the, you know, the relationship between the two.

Speaker 8: I mean, so scientifically it's very similar. I mean, you have, you have a plant that has been domesticated by humans,

Speaker 7: um, and

Speaker 8: it's been turned into a lot of different varieties and it can be processed into different forums.

Speaker 7: Um,

Speaker 8: there's a lot more diversity in cannabis than in wine. Um, but in terms of the industry developing, it's an open question, right? I mean, we would like to see a microbrew industry. We'd like to see a wine industry where you have lots of small producers making extraordinary products with known plant varietals and everybody knows what they have and then it's not that people are competing, dazzling, different. They're taking the same thing and doing their best to make the most out of it. And, you know, we, we, we want the industry to evolve to the point because we know that genetics doesn't define everything. It's a really important starting point, but eventually we wanted to get to the point where it's like, you know, bridal ventnor and vintage, you know, the same thing with cannabis, if, you know, you, you might have a certain genetics, but we're doing a contest now in Oregon called the tri clone challenge where they're taking cuttings from a single plan and giving them the different growers to see what they can get out of them. And we know that genetics defines that window, but they can get a lot more out of them. And so we hope industry grows into, into a wine like industry where people are really, really tuned into the subtleties of all these different components and smell and taste. Um, and that it doesn't grow into kind of an anheuser busch, tfc delivery vehicle industry. Right.

Speaker 5: Well, uh, you know, there's, it's also possible that there's a

Speaker 8: both, right. Probably there will be both, right? So we have yet. So we have an incredible wine industry and then,

Speaker 7: um,

Speaker 8: you know, when we got that because the moonshine world went away because it became legal and so the moonshine world of high thc, cannabis is kind of going away, but there's always going to be grain. Alcohol was always going to be in hazard Bush. Indeed.

Speaker 5: Uh, but we're, we're now in a, in the industry conversation with a scientist. And so what I wanna do is Kinda go back Mowgli. We'll discuss your name. We'll do that later. But as far as you and you know, knowing that you wanted to do it to be a scientist, when did that start

Speaker 8: knowing that I wanted to be a scientist. Yeah. Well, um, my undergraduate degree was not in science and I, and I was actually out of school for

Speaker 5: six years or so before I went back to school to do science. And so what, what pushed you back in? Where was that epiphany of this is what I should be doing. This is what I need to be doing. This is how my brain works.

Speaker 8: Well, I realized I wasn't going to make a good living tending bar and playing drums and shitty rock bands,

Speaker 5: but. Okay, good. So that's first is, were any of the bands that you were in would, would, would any of us know any of those names?

Speaker 8: No, I, at least, I certainly hope not anyway.

Speaker 7: The. Yeah. So that,

Speaker 8: you know, it was time to go back to Grad school as you do. Right. So, um, and I just been up for some reason. I've been obsessed with evolutionary theory for years and uh, I ended up doing biology and um, I studied viral evolution, actually I was an HIV researcher and

Speaker 7: I mean

Speaker 8: I think it was sort of a joke in college that I would probably end up being like a scientist that studied drugs or something. I see. But, um, but, um, it was a long route to come back to that. And then, so then I moved back to Oregon in 2013 in the industry is exploding all around me and there's absolutely no science going on and it was pretty obvious to that I was supposed to take all of that genetics work and apply the cannabis. And so I called up an old mentor of mine at the American Museum of natural history. He was a Columbia professor and said, Hey, do you want to do an evolutionary study of cannabis? And he did. He really did. So we got to work. And how long ago was that? So that was only three years ago. Okay. And have you realize the import of the work that you're doing already or you know, you, you have mentioned a couple times that this is a path and we're on a path and it's going to take awhile. Um, you know, talk about how much you know, you know, about the importance of what you're doing.

Speaker 8: So, so let's just talk about the industry for a second, right? Because they're getting to the basic scientific questions that were kind of obsessed with, but that don't fit into the business or the industry so well, that's actually going to take awhile. We're, we're moving really fast because it's really fun having a research topic that was effectively off limits because you can, it's like a jungle of low hanging fruit, you know, there's just so much to do. Um, but as far as the industry goes, I think we're going to transform the industry pretty quickly into one where it's science driven and there's good testing and there's genetics happening and people know what varieties they have and get rid of the street naming game and, and create a basis for more of a wine industry. I think in the next year or two, the things we're doing will really move things in that direction. Um, and that's really just about,

Speaker 8: you know, consistency and reliability and consumer satisfaction and things like that. At the end of the day, as far as businesses go, I'm more importantly, I think we're, we have a big consortium of, of other science groups that's working with the open cannabis project to, to really push the industry towards making all of this scientific data public so that everybody owns it and individual companies won't be able to patent stuff and restrict it. Um, that's a big fight now. I think that's going to change the kind of, the social fabric of the industry. And then more importantly, the way all of this science is really going to change it, is that when we understand the plan completely, we're going to be able to help readers make absolutely outrageous, amazing new pop. It's gonna be, if it's going to be cannabis that smells and tastes delicious and it has targeted, customized medical compounds and the correct ratios for different ailments.

Speaker 8: Um, I mean, this plant is, as much as happened to it, it's, it's really totally undeveloped. It's an, it's not a professionalized crop. It doesn't have any of the basic agrinomic traits that every other major crop plan has. And it's going to undergo incredibly rapid evolution in the next few years. So you're going to look up in five or six years and there's going to be cannabis around that would be unthinkable today. When, when you say doesn't have any of the other, of the agronomic traits that any other plants do, what do you mean by that? So if you look at, at, uh, any of the corn or soy or rice or barley or hops that, that you consume, it is, it comes from a plant that is hundreds of generations into

Speaker 8: a massive, massive industrialized breeding program. I'm putting aside GMO approaches, which, you know, in the eighties and nineties intersected with breeding programs and, and, and we're all sort of hoping will fade out, um, as, as public opinion turned against them. I mean, people will do that for cannabis. We certainly won't. Um, but, but really the company is that, did that were the tail end of a 100 years of really scientific breeding and they're still doing all that breeding work. And so if you look at any of those corn varieties, like take the ones that weren't gmo at all, they,

Speaker 8: they had been optimized to such an incredible degree. They, they, the corn from 2000 yields six times more corn for per unit of area than the corn 70 years earlier, did six times more. And they have pest resistance traits and salt tolerance and humidity tolerance and drought tolerance. And they, they, they're optimized to grow at certain latitudes. I mean, they've, they've just been, when humans domesticated plants, they really, really transformed them. They transformed them over thousands of years more than we've ever transformed them in the last 100, um, but in the last hundred we've transformed that with a lot of science and a lot of statistics. And you end up with these plants that are really robust and they can handle a lot. So cannabis is just, I mean, it's just constantly being slaughtered by powdery mildew and lights and all of these things that we figured out how to beat and every other crop. But we haven't in cannabis because the breeding has been really unscientific and really focused on yield and pretty colors and smells. And that's it though. We've actually done amazing work on the pretty colors and smells if you asked me. Well, sure. Yeah. No, it's, I mean, even different in the past 20 years or so. Um, uh, on that front. Yeah. As, as far as you know, the, the, the evolution of plant, the evolution

Speaker 5: of, you know, you go back to corn, it reminds me, I saw a painting and I can't remember who it was by, but there was a watermelon in the foreground, a cut open and half, and the watermelon looked completely different than the watermelon that we have now. A first, you know, what I'm talking about. And second, isn't that what you're talking about?

Speaker 8: I think I've seen that picture actually and that's an example of how breathing can, can really diversify plants and, and make them very, very different. I mean, I have a picture that I often show in one of my slides of a watermelon and then have the ancestor of a watermelon from about 40,000 years ago and it looks like a little nut and nut. I mean it looks like a nut or plum or something. I mean it doesn't look anything like a watermelon and, and if you look at the 40,000 year old ancestor of corn, it's this like, whoa, it's this like rock hard little grass would like, it sort of has chunks on it but it doesn't look anything like corn. And so, I mean humans take plants and they accelerate their evolution. We did it even with, you know, almost unconsciously as a species for thousands of years and now we're doing it in really focused systematic ways. So

Speaker 5: where are we on the continuum? You, you keep on saying that we've got, you know, a lot of work to do and it's going to take a lot of time as far as you know, the, the knowledge that we have which is little and the knowledge that we are expect to have, which is vast. Where are we?

Speaker 8: Well, so like I said, I'm, we're way, way behind. We know less about cannabis than any other important plant, but because

Speaker 8: learn now, it's actually still hard to do research on this planet unfortunately, but it's because it's now loosening up. We're going to be moving forward on getting that knowledge faster than anyone else's moving forward on getting other kinds of knowledge because you know, we haven't even hit the hard problems yet. We can just power through the easy ones. So. So we're, we're at the beginning, um, but we're going to be moving fast. And then as far as using the science to help breeders develop new plants, that is going to happen really, really fast. So cannabis is maybe four major scientific revolutions in breeding technology behind each one of those revolutions over the last century. Accelerated the pace of change that you can get out of other crops. Those, all of those scientific innovations are going to be applied overnight to cannabis. And for a short period of time, over the next 10 years, cannabis is going to be the fastest evolving living organism on the planet. Now that you know, um, voters, politicians, regulators have a lot to do with that 10 years. Um, what makes you show sure that we, we get there no matter what.

Speaker 8: I mean, partly I'm an optimist. Partly I just think that this is an unstoppable force at this point. I mean, you can now read pretty detailed economic analyses of what would happen even under a trump presidency and once republicans realize that cannabis is a states rights issue and once they realized that all of a sudden it was like a, an issue of like businesses making money, right? They got on board and I don't think there's any rolling it back a, you can't put the toothpaste back in the bottle or in the tube. I think so. I mean,

Speaker 8: yeah, it's just come to come too far. I mean, you know, I could be wrong, but, uh, I just have a really strong sense that, you know, the pace of change might not happen as fast as I think and the barriers to research are still pretty entrenched at the federal level, but the states are learning how to take control of that and even fund research and uh, you know, it's just become so tied into the fabric of our political landscape now that to really roll that cannabis, you would have to have a fight about states' rights and centralized government on a scale that we haven't had since the civil war. And I don't think that's gonna happen. Uh, interesting. And, uh, who are mostly opponents now would then come down on the side of a cannabis based on that framework. But, um, I don't know if they come down on the side of the cannabis.

Speaker 8: I just think that they would be silenced or they wouldn't, you know, I mean, Kevin Sabet who run smart approaches to marijuana, um, you know, he's probably a Republican. He probably cares about state's rights, but he, he's more worried about weed and probably has a lot of friends who are republicans, but they're probably more worried about states' rights and they just tolerate him, but they're not going to help them as much as you would like. That's my sense. I gotcha. Alright. So you were getting into some very interesting type of thinking. Your brain works in strange ways. Mowgli. So let's, let's do the biography. Where did you grow up? I grew up mainly in kind of in the woods of Oregon and that's why when you say you came back to Oregon, that's your, uh, where, where you were

Speaker 9: basically where you spent your formative years. Is that fair? Well, I've been actually alternating most of my life between Oregon and New York. I've been back and forth about four times. And so when you were a kid you were in both Oregon and New York. So yeah, it was a kid. I lived out here. Then I moved to New York and then I moved back and then I moved to New York and then I moved back. But I went to high school and college in New York. You did where? New York City. Um, so, so a little bit on long island, a little bit in Manhattan and then a little bit upstate and I would imagine there's a potentially a divorce there. Is that, why the two locations? Is that fair to ask? No, no, it just, um, I just like Oregon and I liked New York. I mean I, my family moved out there and then, um, and then I moved back after undergraduate college and then I moved back again for Grad school and then eventually moved back here. I mean it was just, I mean, look really, like where else do you want to live besides New York and Portland? People from Portland do speak of it as though as New Yorkers speak of New York. So I can certainly, uh, I certainly take your point. I'm a New Yorker, so I understand that point of view directly. Um, you know, this whole band bartender thing, uh, when did you take up drums?

Speaker 9: I didn't start playing until I was in college actually. Oh, okay. And who, who informed you? Was it a year? John Bottoms. And you're neil parts or Gene Krupa? I was Neil peart. I was pro John Bonam and pro gene Krupa. Okay. I was trying to be John Bonham and gene Krupa at the same time. That says usually can't really pull off if you don't start till college. That's exactly. Well, I mean that's the, it's difficult to eat. Be either one. Uh, let alone try to merge the two.

Speaker 9: Right. Well, I thought it'd be a crappy, simplified version of both of them together and I, which I did. That was just a bad Keith Moon if you asked me. Right. Well actually it's just, it's it Keith Moon. It's a good keith. Good point though. Yeah. Yeah, I wanted. Okay. I'm fine. I want it to be Keith Moon. You'll, you'll admit it. Um, so, uh, what is that the kind of stuff you were playing or what, what kind of, what kind of music were you playing when you were actually in bands? I mean, I started off more of like sludgy Melvin's type, um, heavy rock m and a. and, and just play it a lot of different kinds of, of, of Indie Rock,

Speaker 8: um, some with, with jazz elements and some not. Um, when I moved to New York City after that I, I played in a really pretty kind of indie pop band for a few years that,

Speaker 7: um,

Speaker 8: that was very different than that earlier stuff, but it was catchy and really fun. Um, and then I started having kids and grandkids.

Speaker 7: No,

Speaker 8: I still have my drum kits set up. Oh, I played all the time. What, what kind of symbols?

Speaker 9: Uh, there are you a drummer? Is that why we're having this conversation? I just, uh, I just appreciate the, uh, the form, the art form, right? Yeah. They're mostly Sabian's. Oh, okay. And you know this, you know the story of the brothers, of course, right? The Sabian brothers. Well, the Zildjian brothers or the Zildjian brothers, uh, you know, I can't remember this. I know there was some connection between [inaudible] and Zildjian, but I totally forget this. They were brothers and a Sabian went out and did his own thing basically. Wow. Yeah. You would, you would know that if you were a neil peart fan. I'm kidding. Right? Right. All right. So, so, so there you go. There you have it. There's the music, uh, piece. Uh, I very much appreciate that. Was there though a moment, an epiphany moment where you were on some couch or where you're set started at 1:00 PM in some club that was very dirty where you said, I just have to stop, or was it very simply my life changed. I started to have kids. I needed to kind of, you know, do something different.

Speaker 8: Uh, I mean,

Speaker 8: I never really decided to stop the music to be honest with you. I mean, at one point I was, I just decided I should go back to school and get a better day job because I just, I just was, um, you know, it's just not a very financially sustainable way of life inside. It was like, oh, I'll just go back to grad school and get a better day job and keep doing what I'm doing. And then, and I think this happens to a lot of people and then several years later you're into way more Grad school than you thought and you have a kid and then you're like, well, I better quit this band for awhile. And then, you know, flash forward a few years and you're, you know, you have two kids and you're running a 17 person cannabis biotechnology company. Yeah.

Speaker 9: It happens all the time to play a lot of music. Yeah, it happens all the time. Okay. Um, what, uh, how old are the kids? Four and 11. So is the 11 year old playing on your drum kit is really my question. They're both of them. And is there any talent there? They both seem pretty good to me. The four year old keeps it exceptional time I would say. Really? Yeah, you can already see it, but. So does the 11 year old. I think they both can be really good. Um, we'll see. It's a big drag

Speaker 8: having to adjust the height of the drums and the stool all the time. But uh, hey, that's, that's what dads do. Right, right, right, right. And you know, of all the problems he could have.

Speaker 5: Yeah. If that's your biggest problem yet, you, you should definitely take it. Alright. So it's time for the three final questions. I'll tell you what they are and then I'll ask you them in order. The first one is, what is most surprised you in cannabis? You might've touched on this, but I'm interested in a direct response there. Then. What has most surprised you in life? That's the second question. Third question we brushed upon it, but I'll ask you again directly on the soundtrack of your life named one track one song that's got to be on there. So first things first though, what has most surprised you in cannabis?

Speaker 8: Jesus. Yeah. I mean, a lot of, a lot of things have surprised me, right? Do you have to pick one thing you don't, you can choose to answer it. Uh, you know, choose your own adventure type of thing. Right. So, I mean, I guess I just never realized that it would be so fucking complicated.

Speaker 8: I mean, we were working on so many different fronts. I mean, we, the first of all the plant turned out to be this common tutorial nightmare for a scientist. I mean, you're looking at thousands of genes controlling thousands of pathways that result in hundreds and hundreds of different compounds that all work together. Common [inaudible] is a medicine in people who have thousands of genes making them different all the time and then there are different every time of the day and then, and then everyone is like, well, so what strange should I get? And it's just so complicated socially and aesthetically and perceptually in scientifically it's multifactorial, mess and then socially in and as an industry, it's so complicated. I mean, it never. I never realized that. I mean, I guess we all thought that cannabis would be legalized and that the people who make cannabis who grow it and use it would be legalized.

Speaker 8: What we didn't realize that they would all be replaced by states and big businesses and the regulatory apparatus. And so, so we're getting sucked into this political world trying to protect the tens of thousands of small family farms in Oregon and trying to protect the diversity in the cannabis plant and make sure that regulations get written intelligently. And, um, I mean I just, I didn't expect any of that. I mean, I spend a ton of time in Salem, the capital of Oregon. I'm helping with this testing laws and, and lobbying for, for decent regulations. And I mean, it's just so crazy and it's just such a complicated world around this industry that I just didn't honestly when I started out as like, hey, let's do the evolutionary, study it and see how these things are. We'll just get some DNA and sequence it and compare it. This is going to be so fun and simple.

Speaker 5: And now you're on Capitol Hill, right? I mean, it's just managed. Hey, you uh, spoke about the complexity of the plant as well as the complexity of us. You know, what, what would you share as far as the endocannabinoid system? How much do you look into that? And does that just complicate your brain from what it needs to focus on?

Speaker 8: No, no. So I mean, that is exactly the, the heart of the complexity, right? I mean there's this incredible diversity of cannabinoids and terpenes and, and then the whole cannabinoid series is this molecular series of variations on a theme, but they, they all explore the shape space around the endocannabinoid receptors. And so every one of those cannabinoids as a potential medical lead compound and the ways that they act in concert at different endocannabinoid receptors in different people with different genetic backgrounds. I mean, that's where all of this plays out, right? So we're looking at the genetics, but what really happens is these structural interactions between molecules in the plant and molecules in humans that are determined by the genetics. And Yeah, we have to think about that stuff.

Speaker 5: I, that, that is the thing that surprises me most is that we're built for each other, the cannabis plant and the human. It's a or, or any mammal for that matter.

Speaker 8: It is really surprising. I mean, so, you know, what people would love to see is evidence of coevolution. And uh, you know, it, it, it, it has, it hasn't really been long enough, but it's just been, it's been just long enough so, and you can look at different parts in the genome of the plant or the human and there are various ways to figure out if they've been driving the evolution of the other organism. And so we're really excited to look at that. That's gonna be good.

Speaker 5: Very interesting. Oh, okay. And how many years until I can talk to you about that because I can't wait for that either. Seriously.

Speaker 8: I mean, honestly, we could do the basic analysis which is called a synonymous, non synonymous code on analysis. Um, as soon as we have a slightly better genome. Okay. We can start

Speaker 5: right now if we had the bandwidth to do it. Got It. Alright. Well, uh, I'll text you the next week and see how you're doing. How about that? Okay, good. All right. What, what has most surprised you in life? Mowgli.

Speaker 7: What has most surprised me?

Speaker 9: I guess I didn't, uh, I guess I didn't realize that so many people would be good in bed. Oh, in the same person. You mean in the same person? That's confusing. That was a surprise to me. It's very confusing. Yeah. It's not a, you know, a black and white at all. It's all, it's all gray man. It's all gray. Yeah. Not even great, but like you have people who are really good and like that same person can also be really bad. I just didn't, I didn't expect that. Uh, yeah, I guess we could go deeper there, but I feel like that's an offline conversation. Um, before we, before we end, I got to do the, the name Mowgli. Obviously you're aware of the fact that there is the same name in the jungle book. I wonder if your parents knew that, you know, people ask me that, but I don't see how you could get to it any other way.

Speaker 9: I mean, you can't just invent something like that. Yeah. So my mom was just a really, really big fan of Roger kipling and she loved that book and um, it had to happen to somebody. Yeah. So to that end, it happened to you and you know, I'm sure that you've read the book, I'm sure that you've kind of taken a, the meaning of the character to, you know, or have you, have you thought about this, you know, what the meaning of the character is or what the meaning of the book is to you and your name and how it all works or. No,

Speaker 9: I mean it was kind of, I mean, I was raised in the woods, but hippies, which is kind of like being in the rate raised in the woods by wolves. Yeah, sure. So the parallel is pretty explicit and a wedding, you know, when I started reading it to my, to my kid, I managed to convince him that I was that kid that was you or had earlier been that kid for like until he was like five. I mean, I really laid it on thick. It was great. Um, so yeah, there's, I knew eventually that book you eventually Santa Claus, Tim, you eventually let them know that it in fact was not. You have to let him know, wised up. All of a sudden he gradually, he was like, I'm not buying this anymore, but you were saying something else about the book and I rudely interrupted.

Speaker 7: Oh, just. I mean, I mean, look, it's a,

Speaker 9: it's a story, unfortunately is written by kind of a bastard of an imperialist white dude. Um, but it's a beautiful story and a, and I love it. Um, you know, I live in cities. I'm not,

Speaker 7: uh,

Speaker 9: I'm not that kid, but uh, but it's, it's a name to have a separate. Everybody mispronounces. Yeah. I, we, I even did at the beginning of this conversation. I'm sure. So, you know. Yes. A fair enough. Say what you will about Roger Kipling, but he does not write me, you know, we, we, we can, we can agree on that. Um, Yep. Alright. So, uh, we've, we've, we've done the Thomas Dolby, uh, we've, we've discussed drummers, um, but, uh, on the soundtrack of your life, one track, one song that's got to be on there, one song that's got to be on there,

Speaker 7: um,

Speaker 9: on the soundtrack of my life.

Speaker 7: Um,

Speaker 9: well for a few years when I was younger, I'm on my outgoing message like when people used to have answering machines. You remember that? Yeah. I remember that. I had a, I had a few minutes of this song by Charlie mingus called Moaning and um, that, uh, that's a song I want it to be the soundtrack at least. Right. Well that, that's the best one. Yeah, that's the answer. That is a, that's a great,

Speaker 7: uh, uh,

Speaker 9: answer. I, I just am taken back by the fact that uh, I know him as Charles Mingus and maybe it's because I'm not a musician. I, I, I didn't know that, uh, we're allowed to refer to him as Charlie Mingus, but maybe that's just your right as a musician.

Speaker 9: Shit, I don't know. I think probably he just put out an album or two where it actually said Charlie. Oh really? I have no idea. Oh, I gotta check that out then. Alright. I don't know. I don't know why they call them that. I should have told you that he was pals with my uncle. But yeah, could have. But that's not true either. The reason that you call him Charlie Mingus is because you're a hepcat Mowgli. That's why maybe you just start to like the songs enough and then eventually in your head you're like, ah, Charlie, there you go. That's why I call felonious monk the monk. The monk. Yeah. See, that's very similar. A Mowgli. I could, we, this could go on forever. Uh, I do absolutely want to kind of keep checking in with you as you, um, you know, find different, uh, questions to answer in different answers to questions that you maybe didn't even know you had.

Speaker 9: So thanks for listening. Also, like you don't have to put this in the interview, but I'm on Friday. We released all their data into the public domain. We launched the version two of the galaxy, which now has all this additional information. Anyone can click on any variety and see all of this genetic information about it. And we launched the genotype test commercially. So now anyone in the country or the world can order the test and get figured out what their sample is and get it put on the galaxy. So, um, hopefully if you check back in a few weeks, the galaxy will be getting bigger faster and you know, it's time that's, it's amazing. It's amazing that it was last week, it was not long time ago and it's a galaxy is here right on my computer, not a far far away. So. So I'm in, in, in all respects, great. Press the little paper airplane in the bottom right and just let it go in journey mode as like a screensaver. That's what I do. So fair enough. That sounds like a, you know, a background for a session, if you will. Yes. Alright, thanks so much. I appreciate you gotTa Mowgli. Good talking to you. And there you have Mowgli Holmes,

Speaker 1: and of course, Etienne Fontanne. Congratulations to the entire Berkeley patients group team on the big wins. That's big stuff. Very much appreciate Mowgli Holmes giving us a few minutes. He, uh, is doing very interesting work. Can't wait to hear more. Thanks to you as always for listening.

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Cannabis Economy is a real-time history of legal cannabis. We chronicle how personal and industry histories have combined to provide our current reality.