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Ep.228: Alec Rochford & Bob Hoban

Cannabis Economy Podcast
Ep.228: Alec Rochford & Bob Hoban

Ep.228: Alec Rochford & Bob Hoban

Bob Hoban joins us to discuss his take on what the DEA thinks about the definition of CBD. He takes us through the fact that the word marijuana is found in federal law but cannabis isn’t. He shares the fact that cannabis, legally isn’t a controlled substance, but marijuana is.  And hemp definitively is not. Long story short if your CBD is derived from industrial hemp you’re fine. Alec from Duby then joins us and discusses his true pivot from what was to be a trending app to what became a gamified social app. Alec literally speaks for his generation as we get into a dialogue about what it means to be a millennial. We discuss, among other things, the concept of institutions from a millennial’s perspective and what it means to meet someone.

Transcript:

Speaker 2: Alec Rochford and Bob Hoban. Bob Hoban joins us to discuss his take on what the dea thinks about the definition of CBD. He takes us through the fact that the word marijuana is found in federal law, but cannabis isn't. He shares the fact that cannabis legally isn't a controlled substance, but marijuana is and ham definitively is not. Long Story Short, if your CBD is derived from industrial hemp, you're fine. Alec from Doobie then joins us and discusses his true pivot from what was to be a trending app to what became a gamified social app. Alec literally speaks for his generation as we get into a dialogue about what it means to be a millennial. Welcome to cannabis economy. I'm your host, Seth Adler. Check us out on social, but the handle can economy. That's two ends of the word economy. Alec from Doobie proceeded by Bob Holden Sanders.

Speaker 1: I listen to Howard stern every day, so started they. That's how they, they stole the Larry say, Oh, they did it. That's. Yeah. I don't listen to Howard stern like that, but I do the movie private parts. I do, uh, appreciate, but it's a good. It's a good movie. Yeah. I, I, uh, I grew up with Howard Stern. Uh, I've listened to Howard Stern, but I was in seventh, sixth, seventh, eighth grade. And where were, where were you in Chicago? Jersey, right outside of Philly. There was a Chicago thing though, right? At some point was, you know. Well, no, actually you're thinking we met around the time when one of the first successful marijuana business daily conferences which took place in Chicago. That's why. And I think that's. And that is why. That's where the Chicago always want to put you in every time you're like, no, Denver, I'm in Denver.

Speaker 1: And so now we are in Denver. I'm in a Hogan and feel a HQ hoping law group. Oh really? The hope and law group. I will look at this. Everything changed. There's no in percent. Dave, Dave, viola, good friend, and a great colleague as transitioned on to other things. He still works as a us of counsel, but he does not practice in the cannabis space. Got It. Yeah, exactly. You got the wacky cannabis thing going, so it's like, you know, why don't you just go ahead and you do it. You go through Bob. Exactly. And so then that gets to where, why I'm here specifically, I want to talk to you, but in November I guess it was, I see this thing that comes across and the dea says that, well, cbd schedule one, and so that's that. And so then everybody kind of hands go up, everybody's screaming and yelling and then like 20 minutes later Bob Hoban says, well, hold on one second.

Speaker 1: That's so fast. So fast. Yeah. So, so the, the definition for quote unquote marijuana extract came out and when it was identified, it basically said, paraphrasing that any extract from a cannabis plant, it has one or more cannabinoids is marijuana extract. Therefore any illegal controlled once is controlled schedule one substance, right? Wait a minute, that's not what the law says. And the dea as a regulatory agency must follow the law called Substances Act itself. Right? This is why we have laws, right? Lawyer Bob. That's right. Yeah, that's right. So, uh, yeah. So what does the law say? So the law says that cannabis, the cannabis plant is not an illegal plant. Marijuana. Marijuana with an h by the way. Yeah, sure. The holdover, right? Marijuana is an illegal substance, not cannabis. So if the definition said an extract from marijuana, we're okay, forget about the cannabinoids will get to that in a moment.

Speaker 1: Sure. But the cannabis plants, not illegal. Marijuana is illegal. Marijuana is described as the cannabis plant, excluding everything, but the stems and the leaves and the flowers and the seeds from the, from the top of the plant. So the stocks, the fiber and what we're seeing is the hemp industry as a has always been accepted. Industrial hemp has always been accepted, exempted from federal law. So the cannabis plants not illegal. The flowers, the stems, the leaves, those real legal parts of the plant, the residence from that parts of the plant. Okay. So that's the one thing. The second thing is cannabinoids. So you know this, the cannabis plant has over 80 cannabinoids. One of those is thc, short. That's the psychoactive ingredient. Absolutely. The other ones are they wellness value, medicinal value. CBN, Thca CBG unit, uh, there's, there's many of them that are non psychoactive, right?

Speaker 2: Alec Rochford and Bob Hoban. Bob Hoban joins us to discuss his take on what the dea thinks about the definition of CBD. He takes us through the fact that the word marijuana is found in federal law, but cannabis isn't. He shares the fact that cannabis legally isn't a controlled substance, but marijuana is and ham definitively is not. Long Story Short, if your CBD is derived from industrial hemp, you're fine. Alec from Doobie then joins us and discusses his true pivot from what was to be a trending app to what became a gamified social app. Alec literally speaks for his generation as we get into a dialogue about what it means to be a millennial. Welcome to cannabis economy. I'm your host, Seth Adler. Check us out on social, but the handle can economy. That's two ends of the word economy. Alec from Doobie proceeded by Bob Holden Sanders.

Speaker 1: I listen to Howard stern every day, so started they. That's how they, they stole the Larry say, Oh, they did it. That's. Yeah. I don't listen to Howard stern like that, but I do the movie private parts. I do, uh, appreciate, but it's a good. It's a good movie. Yeah. I, I, uh, I grew up with Howard Stern. Uh, I've listened to Howard Stern, but I was in seventh, sixth, seventh, eighth grade. And where were, where were you in Chicago? Jersey, right outside of Philly. There was a Chicago thing though, right? At some point was, you know. Well, no, actually you're thinking we met around the time when one of the first successful marijuana business daily conferences which took place in Chicago. That's why. And I think that's. And that is why. That's where the Chicago always want to put you in every time you're like, no, Denver, I'm in Denver.

Speaker 1: And so now we are in Denver. I'm in a Hogan and feel a HQ hoping law group. Oh really? The hope and law group. I will look at this. Everything changed. There's no in percent. Dave, Dave, viola, good friend, and a great colleague as transitioned on to other things. He still works as a us of counsel, but he does not practice in the cannabis space. Got It. Yeah, exactly. You got the wacky cannabis thing going, so it's like, you know, why don't you just go ahead and you do it. You go through Bob. Exactly. And so then that gets to where, why I'm here specifically, I want to talk to you, but in November I guess it was, I see this thing that comes across and the dea says that, well, cbd schedule one, and so that's that. And so then everybody kind of hands go up, everybody's screaming and yelling and then like 20 minutes later Bob Hoban says, well, hold on one second.

Speaker 1: That's so fast. So fast. Yeah. So, so the, the definition for quote unquote marijuana extract came out and when it was identified, it basically said, paraphrasing that any extract from a cannabis plant, it has one or more cannabinoids is marijuana extract. Therefore any illegal controlled once is controlled schedule one substance, right? Wait a minute, that's not what the law says. And the dea as a regulatory agency must follow the law called Substances Act itself. Right? This is why we have laws, right? Lawyer Bob. That's right. Yeah, that's right. So, uh, yeah. So what does the law say? So the law says that cannabis, the cannabis plant is not an illegal plant. Marijuana. Marijuana with an h by the way. Yeah, sure. The holdover, right? Marijuana is an illegal substance, not cannabis. So if the definition said an extract from marijuana, we're okay, forget about the cannabinoids will get to that in a moment.

Speaker 1: Sure. But the cannabis plants, not illegal. Marijuana is illegal. Marijuana is described as the cannabis plant, excluding everything, but the stems and the leaves and the flowers and the seeds from the, from the top of the plant. So the stocks, the fiber and what we're seeing is the hemp industry as a has always been accepted. Industrial hemp has always been accepted, exempted from federal law. So the cannabis plants not illegal. The flowers, the stems, the leaves, those real legal parts of the plant, the residence from that parts of the plant. Okay. So that's the one thing. The second thing is cannabinoids. So you know this, the cannabis plant has over 80 cannabinoids. One of those is thc, short. That's the psychoactive ingredient. Absolutely. The other ones are they wellness value, medicinal value. CBN, Thca CBG unit, uh, there's, there's many of them that are non psychoactive, right?

Speaker 1: Those are not controlled substances unless they come from quote unquote marijuana. So to define it the way they did somehow that the presence of cannabinoids, yeah. Means that something's a controlled substance is not anywhere to be found in federal law. So that's the second part of it. That's wrong. Okay. But you just told me that cannabis is not a schedule one substance, or at least that's what my mind wanted to hear. Cannabis is not a controlled substance. Marijuana, it's. I just feel like we're, uh, doing uh, you know, kind of word. Uh, we're, we're playing word checkers here, so I want to make sure that everyone understands what we're talking about because I don't ever play hangman. Sure. When you, when you lose the game, yes. The hang man sitting there hanging. Absolutely. Look at the hangman, take his head and take his neck. Sure.

Speaker 1: That's marijuana. God, that's the flowers of the plant. The leaves. And that's the stem. Sure. The rest of the plant are his arms, the stick body and the stick legs. Hey Times a little stick and then that's the Hampton, I get that point. That's the exempted parts of the plant. So you take things out of that part of the plant? Yeah, it's not marijuana, but I'm getting my cbd out of the flower. Okay. Was it flower produce under the US farm. Bill authorized for domestic production in the US. If it was you, then that's it. That is an illegal substance. That is a legal. So legal. The farm bill creates an exception. Now it says, not withstanding, meaning in spite of the controlled substances act or any other federal law. Right. You can produce industrial hemp under the farm bill and the products derived there from our legal.

Speaker 1: But I still, you know, I got my manufacturing facility here and I, my lawyers are still waiting to hear how I'm still allowed to ship my cbd product across the country because I, I'm not there yet. Right. Who you are because there's something called the omnibus bill. Okay. Federal law. Okay. So you're familiar with the marijuana would with Rohrabacher farm of course. Yeah. So the omnibus bill, also known as the McConnell rider is kinda the rebecca [inaudible] of hemp. Okay. It says that. And just trying to remember where Mcdonald's from Mcconnell said Kentucky. Oh, why's and where's the, where's the largest? Uh, hemp state. Which, which state is the one that would be Colorado. What's second? Uh, Kentucky. Kentucky. Yeah, exactly. Put that into perspective by the way. I Love Kentucky, but there were 12,000 acres of hemp grown in the US last year. 9,000 came from Colorado. Oh, I didn't know it was that. Oh, it's not even close. I thought it was one too, but they'll catch up with also one full season ahead of them. Fair enough. Um, but, uh, but I, I have to have to give props to the state of Colorado short course. Of course. Um, so the, the McConnell rider that the omnibus bill, right? Say left wing nut job. Mitch Mcconnell.

Speaker 1: He says that, uh, you can transport farm bill produced product amongst the states. The federal government cannot interfere with that. Okay. So that's where the transportation from an interstate commerce perspective comes in. Okay. So if I'm getting my cbd from hemp, I'm fine if I'm getting my cbd from the head and the neck as we described it, or cannabis as I know it. Marijuana, as you're telling me it is a by US law, right? Then I might be in a sticky situation or what a correct and that's where. That's where there's a lot of misunderstanding. So it's really not this hypothetical or theoretical situation. It's really not. Slicing and dicing hair's so thin that there's really no differences. There are significant differences because thinking about it this way, two ways that hemp products get get made under the farm bill entire plant becomes lawful if it's produced in another place where it's not produced in the U. s somewhere abroad and the flowers, the head and the neck or left in the field, and then you take the rest of the plant with either no residence on it or you strip the resins off of it, then that's an illegal product.

Speaker 1: Okay, that's fine. So we're, we're all great. This is fantastic. Still want to focus on the head and the neck here because I think that most cbd product is coming from the head and neck that we know from the domestic produced product, yes or no, from Bob who saying, Hey, Da's wrong. It sounds like now, why do I have to worry? The DDA refuses to recognize that the farm bill creates an exception to federal law despite the fact that it does on its face. And the 20 primary sponsors of the legislation wrote a letter to the dea sure couple of months ago and said, no, this was intended to create an exception to federal law to controlled substances intended to create a commercial marketplace. And step back. And by the way, we're talking about a plant with about as much thc as there is caffeine and a DECAF Cup of coffee.

Speaker 1: You can't get a caffeine buzz off a decaf coffee. Well, so now there's where we're talking about the two different things, right? Uh, but I still, and I liked that were going back and forth here. I feel like this is what it must be like a with some of your clients. You know, well no, you're still not getting it and then that's me, you know, I'm still not getting it. So if I grow my cannabis in Colorado, California, and I'm shipping my cbd product from the head and the neck from the cannabis, I should maybe wait. It depends. So if we're talking about industrial hemp, meaning registered with the Department of Agriculture, right? In conjunction with the farm bill, that's three percent or below. Yes. That's okay. If it comes from marijuana meaning point three percent or above, then it should be in the seed to sale tracking system of any state that has a marijuana program, which it is in which it can't leave that closed loop system interest period.

Speaker 1: So I can't grow. I can't extract something from a marijuana plant that's registered in any marijuana state and bring it outside of that closed loop, seed to sale track and trace system. So there is an issue here. There is, there is. Now, the problem though is if you're going to produce cannabinoid extraction, that closed loop system, there's an abundance of regulations, makes it far more expensive to produce those cannabinoid products than it does in the hemp system. It makes it inefficient and one would argue that the marijuana system was intended to regulate psychoactive substances anyway, not simply the plant. So then if you extract those materials from legal hemp industrial hemp point three percent or below, then those materials are allowed to enter the marketplace. Now, there's other FDA issues. We don't even need to get into the weeds on that because that's where things begin to get really thorny.

Speaker 1: Uh, so I promise not to go down the rabbit hole, but give us the, such as, so we know not what to talk about. Well, so, so the, uh, the hemp food products or hemp supplements extracts that are from, other than the non viable seeds, meaning sterilized or, or, or just seeds, they can't plant in the ground. Those are deemed an adulterant, a deleterious substance, a poison or the FDA interested. They haven't enforced that because I can get it at whole foods or trader Joe's for, by the way, go back to the definition of marijuana extract the oil that you can get at whole foods. Guess what? That comes from sterilized seats or non viable seeds because they're not always sterilized. There's a distinction there. You press him, meaning you extract the oil, gets what's in that oil. Cannabinoids might be trace amounts, but they're in there.

Speaker 1: Right? And guess where that oil came from? I a cannabis plant. Yeah. Guess what? That makes it a marijuana extract under federal law. So you want to go buy marijuana extract, go down to whole foods and buy some. Well I think what we should talk about is the rates that should start at, uh, at the whole foods. I got it. Yeah. No, that's not a funny joke. If I take it back, I mentored with, with 1000 percent sarcasm. All right. Um, so, so it is a little bit of a, an issue though that cbd was highlighted and this was under the Obama administration. Um, you know, has anything happened since November as far as this issue as we make our way into this new administration? So of course our lawsuit was filed in January on the definition and that remains pending. That's going to go through procedural processes.

Speaker 1: Uh, there'll be some jurisdictional issues to deal with. And then once those issues are briefed, assuming all of those things work out properly for the plaintiffs in that lawsuit, who we represent, then, uh, then we'll go right to the meat of the issue and really brief this issue. Well. Um, there's a couple of other administrative matters that are very similar and related. Other words, uh, it's a letter like petition to the dea saying, remove this definition from your scheduling. That's awesome. That's the stuff shear on Americans for safe access. We're had something to do with that right now. Know that they've done that. Similarly in other things. This is another thing that we've done with regard to this same definition also for CBG and CBD, which have what I call Phantom junk codes because you won't find them in the orange book though. They're being used by different government agencies, so those exist.

Speaker 1: And then there's also, um, a pending matter with regard to the old 2004 hia versus dea case, uh, in conjunction with our client, the hia, through, uh, through their other council, uh, really find people, Jonathan Miller and uh, Industry Association and, uh, and they're, they're looking at a, what's effectively a contempt motion against the dea for refusing to acknowledge the result of that 2004 case. They haven't changed their rule despite the fact that they lost and never appealed it. Yeah. So, uh, so there was an issue there. So there was a concerted effort here to highlight the fact that the hemp industry is, uh, is growing both literally and figuratively. It has a tremendous upside. It really is the future of our countries agricultural economy. And that's not an overstatement. If we can do that many things beyond cbd and cannabinoids shorts, um, you know, someone food, fuel, fiber, right Pharma to name a few of them.

Speaker 1: That's, that's the, that's the future. Uh, so this is about recognizing and industry and recognizing that this is not as psychoactive plant. Uh, in terms of the products that come from industrial hemp and that the future is bright and please just follow the law. Now. Follow your operators are follow our own laws. Let's just get on the same page now. Let's actually just all follow the letter of the law please. Dea. Yes. Right please. Okay. So then you, you hand me this other thing which, you know, we've been talking about politics a lot and what I've been saying when we get to politics is I come from the left. I tried to be in the middle, I try to be in the center and I do think that we need to really holistically revamp the way that we talk with each other about politics. And I mean us, the American citizens, we, the people need to not be against each other because then we're being played.

Speaker 1: Armley knew exactly which is brings me to your make up Erica hemp again, a doc that you gave me. So what is this? So make America Hampton. Yep. Again, is a simple solution. A simple, which is probably why it won't work the federal level, but it's a simple solution to to revise the lens through which we look at the cannabis plant and it creates three industries that should exist side by side side, which creates the maximum amount of jobs, revenue and opportunity for the American people, and when you say revenue, you mean tax revenue, tax, revenue and revenue for the companies which translates into tax revenue and jobs and the jobs as well. We're talking about tens of thousands of jobs, so if you view the industry through a lens that has three distinct industries and nutraceuticals industry, that flows from the cannabis plants, which means our dispensary system, right, and food and wellness products from him.

Speaker 1: Then a pharmaceutical system which is cannabis space medicine, typically synthetic mimics of the naturally occurring substances regulated at the FDA level by Pharma and third, currently typically a synthetic typically, although, although there is some, some, some innuendo at a minimum now that some of these pharmaceutical companies are using natural naturally occurring cannabinoids in their products more than one company, more than one. Okay. There's a couple of those. The whole barn, I said, I know I'm not telling you, but I know the third, sorry for interrupting you, I'm trying to interview you and I'm interrupting you over and over again. The third, the third, uh, the third one is the third one is the industrial component. So that's really be industrial hemp, a complex where you look at all of these things that you can do with elements from the plant beyond things intended for animal or pet consumption beyond a medicinal products.

Speaker 1: Uh, and that's really where we're going to see the most growth over the next five to 10 years, um, in the, in the US economy, around this plant. And it's a simple policy solution that lets that, those three industries all exist at the same time. Now, I would argue contrary to I think pop popular sentiment that we have never been in a better position to realize the full benefits from an economic perspective around this plant. And we do going into the trump administration. Tell me how I believe that the Clinton administration had that come to fruition. A Hillary Clinton administration. Oh, well that's the. Forget about that because that's not happening. It didn't happen, but that would have paved the way to take our existing system into, handed over to just a farmer, a medicinal cannabis based medicine complex. I'm sure that was the, the, and would have eliminated the jobs we have now.

Speaker 1: One hundred $23 is a lot of woods here and forget about it, you know what I mean, but, but instead, so we're poised with a situation where we have an unabashed a policy of, of dollars jobs and America's CEO looking at America, make America hemp again. It, it, it solves that problem. And I don't pretend to be the only one with these ideas. These ideas are actually coming from within the trump administration or at least the transition team leading into the trump administration, Peter Teal and such. Correct. Um, and you know, some of the other, uh, sympathize user or appetizers to the industry. You haven't looked at a look, it's an interesting word in politics, sympathizers. It brings us back to Vietnam. But that's a, that's a different topic. Exactly. Um, so, so I, I think what we'll see is the look back at the Bush administration.

Speaker 1: Sure had John Ashcroft, I'm arguably worse the same as jeff sessions in terms of, you know, some of his political rhetoric that just doesn't stand to reason with anybody. I'm not trying to get political so much as just to say it was an example. It was an adverse situation from a southern state that, uh, that probably didn't view this plan very well. Um, and that's when the marijuana industry took off the last two years of President Bush and we had saber rattling, we had this, this, this, uh, talk this lip service at the top levels of the Department of Justice had said, this is bad, we need to rein this in. But they came out with the policy memo in effect that said this is how we're going to allow the industry to exist. Well done. Positive wasn't, Ogden wasn't until 2009, but the groundwork was laid within 2000 before that.

Speaker 1: Yes, because the topic was, was basically put on the table during Obama's campaign push towards becoming president, which is what I mean. I, I love the fact that we can just, I'm going to go with this. The, the groundwork for the industry was laid in the last two years of the Bush administration from the interviews that I've done it, it does seem like a many of the players that we know and love, um, jumped in in 2009 after Obama. That's because we had the subsequent policy memos had put further clarity. It wasn't just, we're not going to interfere with individuals who are doing using marijuana and creating marijuana on a large scale. It sort of shifted that to a recognition that there's a commercial aspect that there is an industry here date, all right, but let's follow that down the road and say what gives the Cole memo teeth in present day.

Speaker 1: It's Rebecca farm, you know, and it's the mcconnell rider on the hemp side. The, and by the way, something that's even more important is the mcclintock policy amendment, which would take [inaudible] far and apply it to adult use marijuana conditions. Exactly right. Yes. So that's where the teeth comes in and let's not, I mean, but do you see adult use at that? We'd be great. I mean, it could because if that passes, if there's something that happens with t two 88, fantastic. If there's something that happens with banking, unbelievable. If there's this, if the mcclinton McClintock Polis amendment does pass and we have a federal, at least a recognition of the adult use industry, I'm sure that would be amazing. Who are you talking to that you think that that could possibly pass? Uh, you know, well, all three branches of government can be a in that exact chair you're sitting in about three hours ago.

Speaker 1: And that's what he told me. He said, uh, yeah, so, so, so he's someone I admire greatly. Absolutely. You're on the pulse. So, uh, in terms of policy, sure, MTP, um, but uh, in any event, it's those Republican sponsored budget amendments that are extended through April. I've no reason to believe they would be discontinued. That's what gives this teeth. Now, that doesn't mean that sessions couldn't go after marijuana, uh, from other areas besides under the controlled Substances Act, like it just also resend the Cole memo. So I mean, that would be correct, but at the same time, those, those budget amendments would, would remain in tact just without guidance. Exactly. Which would be. That doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. Doesn't make sense, right? But it is our federal government, so not everything has to make sense. So, so that, that is the concern. But at the end of the day, if you recall, after the nomination hearings for sessions six, four or five weeks ago, whatever it was, I'm happy.

Speaker 1: Groundhog day is one. We're talking 2017. That's right. It is, it is groundhog day. And there are six more weeks of winter. Sure. Uh, unfortunately, there always is and they're never as Bob. Right? So, uh, the, uh, the, the idea with what's going to happen is tempered by the fact that spicer secretary came out the day after that hearing, and paraphrasing again said he's on team trump. If you're on team trump, you followed trump's cannabis policies team. Trump's cannabis policy of states rights. I feel like you're inferring. I don't know if he said all of those words, but I'll take your point, tremendous paraphrase, paraphrasing the century, but uh, those things combined I think paint a, an interesting picture. I've been told that there's, there's, there's a likelihood that they pushed back on adult use and really focus on medical, but let's face it, it's all over the counter marijuana.

Speaker 1: Yeah. The finding your regulatory structure by the purchaser of the product is silly. Yeah. It's over the counter marijuana and if you created a system that merged like Washington medical with adult use just headed as over the counter marijuana or if it was medical marijuana and you simply created a situation like Colorado, like Florida, like some of these other states that have a catchall for a broad category still vetted by physicians, but abroad carry that category that would allow people that want to use this product to use it. It's more of the same. It's really a form over substance argument. Sure. I, again, take your point as far as where you're going with that as a though, what Washington did, I, I'm not a fan of and I'm not a fan of a coupling medical with adult use because, uh, I think that they are two separate things and you know, when you talk about dosage and this and that, once you remove medical and then put in dosage limits which sound, you know, a reasonable, then all of a sudden my buddy that has crones can't get his 500 milligrams that he needs in his, you know, one, uh, one piece of cannabis.

Speaker 1: Um, so I think that that's a slippery slope. However it is. That's a good point. Very good point. All right, well I thought you weren't going to agree with me. That's why I was going to go on. When you make a good point, my, my, my, my point in and make America hemp again. I really don't make a distinction between the two because the, the outer limits of what the, you know, the highest dose that you can get. I believe that, you know, this is an element where the marketplace would fill all the needs. The market's not going to stop stocking medicinal based products that are based out of Canada, Washington dollars to be made. Washington did though. And that's the crazy weird stuff that, that, uh, that can go on. But the thing is, if we're talking about federally legal cannabis, I feel like that's, you know, let's take a baby step where we can take it any day.

Speaker 1: You know, what else is going on? Everything good. Everything was going very well. It's a, it's winter in Colorado. And hence the beard. I mean, Bob Hoban with a beard. It's fantastic. The playoff beard. Oh, is it? What playoffs is it other flowers for you for, for uh, for Dea territory. All right, good. So I've asked her the three final questions, but I will ask you the final question as always on the soundtrack of your life. One track, one song that's got to be on there. Uh, you know, so many different songs and I think I've told you before, dark hollow by the grateful dead, but you know, these days I'm kind of into a memo from a, I don't know if you know, who knows, but there's, there's a lot of good stuff in there. Southern, uh, southern funk rock, a southern rock, that's a lot of good things. Also, Jay Gray and mo fro check it out. I'll take anything from them. Do they have as a key question to. They have horns or their horns, the horn section. If they make anything better by adding horns, no doubt about it, no doubt about it. Taking the a grateful dead. Nineteen 88 with Branford Marsalis on, on Horn. That works pretty well for instance. That's exactly right, bob. Hope and keep fighting. All right, keep us up to date. All right, thank you.

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Speaker 3: Do you have a dog? I used to have the dog. You would let the dog be that close, right? Yeah. Same concept. Would you. Are you into a dog kisses though? You had a dog? Yeah, I mean, you know, you're okay with man's best friend. Okay. And the dog lip kisses also. I'm not into that. So you do draw the line. I draw the line somewhere. I'm with you completely. I feel like you always have to draw the line somewhere with everything. Sure, absolutely. Sure. I'll try it. But in moderation thing. And that goes for dog. Right? Right. So Alec, with Doobie, we were on the way up to uh, these microphones and, and I asked if you know, because I asked if there was a new lounge and you said no, no. Yeah, yeah. But I feel like now you're considering, I'm thinking about it a little bit.

Speaker 3: I mean I haven't gotten a debbie in awhile, but I'm thinking about it. Yeah. Well that's the because the own lab then, you know, it eliminates the possibility if that's right. Yeah. All right. So, so you're one of these tech guys and you're from Arizona and I said that one. It's a tech hub and you said actually it really. Is it starting to be. Yeah, it's growing pretty quick. Yeah. Well apple just, you know, they have a manufacturing plant down there as of this year and it's just growing and now it's close to silicon valley. Not too far. How many miles is it a quick trip type of thing? On top of my head. I don't know. But you know, quick plane trips on bad. There you go. Love it. Fantastic. Are you from Arizona? I am, yeah. Interesting. I've been in Colorado for three years. Okay. Where in Arizona are you from? Phoenix, Arizona. Oh, so you're from there. You know the color Angelo's for instance? No, but I mean they own all the sports teams. They're not a sports fan then? No. I mean we've never been good down there.

Speaker 3: We were in the superbowl once and that was about it. That's true. And you probably missed like the curt schilling, Randy Johnson, Arizona diamond back. No, I was there for that. You did. That was. That was a good year. They very, a good couple of years. That's absolutely a good run. I think 2001 was one of those ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I still remember Craig Council, you know, jumping now the manager of the Milwaukee brewers. There's no reason for us to be discussing this. When did you go to school? I went to Asu, Arizona state. Oh, okay. So you, you're like an Arizona guy? Yeah. That's The sun devils. Yup. And what did you study at that party? School finance had time. Yeah, finance. I mean that is, that is world renowned as soon as a party school is distracting for sure. It absolutely was. It was fun school, you know, got 70,000 students there.

Speaker 3: Yeah. So I mean there's just tons of stuff to do. It never ends. You were able to study though, you were able to focus it kind of. Here's the thing, because you're young guy, we talked, we talked about that you had to have been able to study, you doing well. You got good grades and I did find, yeah, finance. Yeah. When you decided to have finance as your major, you were thinking what? You know, I was thinking that it was kind of broad with business and that I have no. I had no idea what I wanted to do, you know, and this will be functional. I'll be able to use this somehow when I figure out what I wanted to teach me how to use excel, something like that. You know, how to concatenate cells for instance. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean I'm, I am pretty good at excel. I've gotten pretty good recently, you know, when I hold it down. Then when did the kind of, all right, here's the finance, here's the finance degree. Now I graduated. Did you still at that

Speaker 4: point? Not quite know where, which way we were going to go with the. I left early to go do this actually. So look at that. So technically I'm a certified college dropout. There you go. They call it. Absolutely. And looking at you, I would. I believe it. Thank you. Um, so that's a compliment. Um, when was the epiphany then? It sounds like it must've been during school. It was during school. Yeah, it was, uh, I was talking to my cousin Ross, who, who's my partner, he handles all of our technology. His son Jack has fragile x, which is similar. It's a form of autism. Oh Wow. Okay. And so they son was having a really rough time falling years behind, you know, various, um, very slow development and he couldn't really talk or eat much or it was just a total nightmare. And so they were trying to figure it out and Russ has been the medical cannabis consumers whole life and they gave Jack Cbd and he was actually the first fragilex child to receive CVD treatment and literally 24 hours later talking more, eating more like the next day.

Speaker 4: And so our entire family was blown away and raices, you know, called me and said, hey, you know, we've always wanted to do something. We need to do something in cannabis because there's something here that's amazing. Yeah. You know, there are many ways into cannabis for those that have had careers before the economic apocalypse. Many were brought to kind of cannabis because other industries had fallen and there was a new opportunity for you. And then the other big way in is from patients. In other words, I know this patient that, you know, cannabis became their medicine and help solve an issue. You one of those people, I am. So, so he comes to you and you say, okay, and then what happens? So how did you Zuckerberg out of there? I was, I was working in real estate. I was selling apartment buildings and going to school.

Speaker 4: So I'd go to school night, school night, I would do that. And um, then I just decided to quit the job, quit school and move out to Denver where I had family and where Russ was. And just do it. Let's talk about your parents for a second. Okay. Right. So that's okay. Kind of. Okay. I get it. There's a family tie in. It is for a patient. Okay. But you call mom and dad or maybe just add or maybe just mom. You'll tell me. And then what was the response on the other line when you said, hey, I'm leaving school. I mean they were, you know, because I had a good job too, so they were kind of hesitant, I guess you could say, and I'm unemployed and I'm dropping out. I'm going to let it ride. Yeah. I mean it's, they weren't too excited about it in the beginning of my dad's pretty conservative guy, but you know, they, you know, they always been supportive so it was fine.

Speaker 4: And they know you're a smart kid. I hope so. Yeah. So when I think so. So he was like, I hate this, but I am supporting it. What will you say you conservative guy? What does, what does he do for a living? Well, he owns a construction company, so he's, you know what? It's Arizona. It's pretty conservative state. Got It. What about your mom? What does she do? Yeah, she is a, she actually raises money for a Jewish national fund. Your, you. I am a God. I didn't know. Are you a Jew? Of course. I'm a Jew. Look at this face. Come on now. I've a face built for radio and synagogue. So, uh, so anyway, so, uh, thank your mother for her work and I will. Absolutely. All right. So your mother of course was much more disappointed than your father was.

Speaker 4: I think she's only concerned about me marrying a Jew and so I don't think anything else affects her too much. I think I'll be there. My mother was not like that. That's an interesting. We can get into that another time. But anyway, so you go to a to denver with cousin Ross. And so what year was this? This was three years ago. So 2014. Am I doing the melody? Actually? Yeah. Okay. So adult use had just come online. Yup. Um, but for you, you're a medical guy, your cbd. It doesn't, this adult use thing. That's not really what you were about. Well, it's, my partner was the medical guy. I was kind of just a light consumer my whole life. I got Ya. So he learned about it, but what I'm saying is when you were talking about, hey, doing something around. Sure. Medical, what was the conversation then?

Speaker 4: Well, the conversation was that we wanted to do something with cannabis because we had saw what it had done to Jack. It wasn't really a more of a, we got to do something in the medical area. It was more of, you know, everybody was so supportive in the community who was working with us and helping us that we wanted to do something with these people. You know, we got really excited about it. These people in the best sense. Of course. Yes. Yeah. So, uh, so what were the first kind of iterations? What I want to know is, you know, when, when we're in tech, we talk about pivots. So of course there was this iteration in that iteration. What was the first idea that you can remember? We were going to create a deals app for finding deals at dispensary's. I gotcha. And we started building that.

Speaker 4: I mean, we actually built the APP and everything was sunk a bunch of money and do it, you know, we raised and you know, didn't work out. What was the name of that? It was duty. Yeah. Oh, we truly did pivot. Pivoted a couple times. All right. Yeah. So the deals thing, it didn't work out because there was already other companies that were doing it that were, had been around and they had a lot of users. And we just thought to ourselves, it's not unique enough. We don't do something that's really unique. Next idea was the next idea was actually a product trending idea. So we actually didn't end up building this, which is good. But we almost did. So it was all we were talking to friends that we have in the industry and they're basically saying, hey, you know, I, I can't find these products.

Speaker 4: Um, you know, at these best prices I have to like drive around in it. I don't know where I'm going. And there's a, you know, I saw a deal the other day at this, uh, this firehouse dispensary, they had this Brownie that was an, a million milligrams in it and I would love to go, you know, get that. But I didn't, I didn't know about it. How do I deal. This was the different one. This was the product trending. So you go and you find these products and people are saying, Hey, these are the best practices we found out was that people weren't going to one place to get everything. They'd go get their edibles here. They get their shadows here, strains here. So we're trying to make a product trending app, you know, we can find these things. This is, we've heard that people might like this.

Speaker 4: Yeah. You know, if, if you're, if you're watching, you know, go make this and if you want this go here. Yes, yes. Okay. All right. So that the trends thing still doobie. Why did we decide against building this? Um, you know, basically is this kind of a weird story, but I'll, I'll talk about it anyway. So we put an ad out on craigslist and we said if you are a cannabis consumer, you have an iphone between the age of 21 to 30, come over to my apartment, we're going to pay you 20 bucks for an hour of your time. Here's a consumer group. Yes. As you can imagine, we had some pretty interesting characters. There was a fun afternoon for sure. So you actually did pull off this consumer focus group? Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So we had a, you know, 10, 15 people come over and we play with these three different apps that we created in envision.

Speaker 4: So you create these little apps that are, you know, they don't have the functionality and all that, but you can click on stuff and do stuff. And so we had three different ideas and the product trending one was one and then we had this other one which was this gameified social network. It was kind of like a social network and a game had a baby and it was really weird and just. We couldn't really figure out exactly how it was gonna work, but the whole idea behind it was you create this Doobie, which is a picture or a video and it sends it out to people anonymously around you, and then they can either pass your job or they can put it out and everybody has a score and your score goes up or down based on the popularity of your content. So that was the whole thing.

Speaker 4: And so we had no, and you know, we came up with this idea in raices garage shrink. I mean we had no idea what we were doing and uh, and we built these three apps and then the gamma fied social one was the one that everybody loved all 10 out of 10 people loved it and they hated the other stuff. What was the demo again? The demo that, in other words, the, it was 21 or 21 to 30 and it just, if you consume cannabis and you have an iphone, right? So even at the top end of that, everybody loved the game of fighting. They love the game of find silver. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, this is also right around when pokemon go was happening. So this, all right before. Yeah. Now is there, is there a uh, uh, what is that ar type of go around and find doobies and the real world?

Speaker 4: Yeah. Not yet. Not yet. That's next. Maybe. Maybe. Look at, look at me giving me ideas. I've got a couple of good ones so far so. So. Okay. So, so every single person chooses this one. Yes. You did not think that that's what they were going to chat? Absolutely not. I thought it was just a total piece of crap to be honest. So they leave because you're thinking, okay, well we're going to be able to build this trend thing after we get some insights. And then they're like, no, no, no, you're not building them now. You don't want, we don't want that. And then you close the door and you look at cousin Ross and you're like, we got to build the game thing. Neither of us really knew anything about it. We weren't excited about it and we had no idea what it would be, you know?

Speaker 4: So it was very dark. Where did you, how did you, you said you came up with it in his garage. Do you remember how you even arrived with this? We to be, yeah. I mean, to be honest, we were kind of thinking, you know, nobody has a way of meeting people and uh, and then it is a lifestyle. It's like you start your morning and your day cannabis if you're really a daily consumer and so are a daily medical user. And so we were trying to figure out what would be something that they would want to spend a lot of time in everyday where they could meet people and just have fun. So that's the key is you do physically meet the person that you pass the Doobie too or. No, no, no, no, no. Okay. So now it's not like tinder or anything like that.

Speaker 4: Fair enough. That's where I was going with that. But what, uh, uh, why can't I meet people on mass roots? The way I meet them on Doobie would be the obvious question that anyone would ask at this point because of the way that Doobie works is basically when it goes out, when that doobies created, it's going to go out to people who are closest to you physically and so it's actually going to get to people who are down the street or you know, a mile away. And so people will interact with you that are close to you. And so when people make friends and you know, actually, you know, make connections, uh, you know, because of the way that the information is shared, which is very unique compared to any other app out there. Is there a functionality aside from, you know, uh, either passing or extinguishing.

Speaker 4: Uh, so in other words, once I find a friend on Doobie, what, what else can I do with that friend? What do you guys, you guys can message and you can, you know, all the same stuff you can do and other networks. But you know, you're. The main thing is that everybody has this score that goes up or down based on the popularity of content. So it's a very gamifying God, you know, and so the algorithm behind it is really what makes people addicted to it because they're trying to figure out how they can get their scores higher and they can be an influencer and my score can go down. Absolutely. Which would be infuriating. It is, it's, it's, it is infuriating. I get emails all the time from people every day and people are like, Hey, my score went down 20 points when I posted this new doobie and, and what is that?

Speaker 4: They try to figure it out and I'm like, I can't tell you too much about it, but to keep playing post something that's better. I don't know what to tell you. All right. So now. Okay. So I'm competing with everyone. I'm competing with myself. I don't want to lose points. I want to gain points, I want to meet people. But that's almost secondary it sounds like. Yeah, it is. I feel like. So it's a, it's your own destiny type of thing. So what I guess. So if I'm, you know, one of these people that's 21 to 30, which of course I am and I have a smartphone.

Speaker 5: Um, the, the, the

Speaker 4: point here is this is actually something,

Speaker 5: uh, you know, that I can do with my time. I can meet New People, I can actually, you know, game, I can

Speaker 4: gain, gain, influence, influence. There you go. I can become an influencer. That's right. Okay. Yes. So it's, how does it relate to how I might, you know, interact on snapchat? Well, the difference between Doobie and I'd like to compare it to instagram because everybody knows what instagram is. It snapchat, once you get above the age of 40, people don't really know too much about sanitation. And again, since I didn't want to 30, I know exactly what it's not perfect and I know exactly how to do but a fair enough go with instagram. That's. So when I compare it to instagram I'd say, you know, when you create something on instagram picture or video or whatever, it's going to go to people who follow you. So you don't really have a chance of having any sort of popularity, nothing trend. You're probably not going to be an influencer.

Speaker 4: It's very, you know, one out of a billion or whatever it is, chance, you know, when you're on Doobie, it's actually going to get to, you know, let's say 100 people or whoever the amount of your score is around you and so you're actually going to have a shot. So everybody's on the same playing field, you know, in the APP, all that. Yeah, exactly. Uh, okay. And so what kind of people obviously are emailing you when they're very infuriated about the fact that their scores are going down, what other consumer insights are you getting? What else are you hearing about the interactivity and, and what have you? I get a lot of feedback from people. So I try to talk to one user a day and this was like my qualitative feedback that I used to make the APP better. Sure. You know, and so I look, take that, look at the numbers and I go, okay, you know, what should we do next?

Speaker 4: But people hit us up and they go, hey, we want this or we hate this about the APP, you know, this is crap. Why would you do this? Give me some of those. I really do want to know. Well, we'll have people say like, why can't, why don't we have text messaging? You know, I have this picture of video thing. I keep getting emails about that lately. It's driving me crazy. I'm like, all right, we'll build it. You know, I've had probably a thousand emails about it. Yeah. So I'm thinking, all right, we're going out. We gotta build text messaging that's in the queue now everybody, you know, leave me alone. Will do it. I've, yeah, totally. And let them meet each other. That's what I say. Hey, you know, if he should sell for sure. So you don't want them to meet each other, you know?

Speaker 4: No. Um, I, we built the APP so that they can meet each other and have a great time and enjoyed being physically meet each other. Yeah, absolutely. I mean we've heard, I've seen pictures of people together who were eating on the APP. They'll meet at cannabis events or whatever in cannabis cups in California. I've seen pictures like that. I do want to, you know, I've been joking around. I'm 4,100, 25, 26, 26. When I say meet, I do mean in person. Do you meet people? Not In person. I wonder. I'm literally asking the philosophical question of what the definition of meeting someone meets.

Speaker 4: You could say. Yeah. I'd say you could not meet somebody in person because you could actually, you know, if you're just commenting on somebody's picture, not really meeting them, you're just kind of chatting. But if you actually go into a private messaging conversation with someone, you kind of get to know them a little bit more. So you are kind of meeting in a millennial type of way. And deed was. I'm so glad you used that word. Thank you. So now we're going to go there. Now that we're here, I'm here for you. Okay. So this word I'm noticing has all sorts of connotations. Okay. This is not just a word, right? This is the societal. I mean, you know, uh, what a tornado that word, because when I say it, it means something. When you say to mean something, sure. You say millennial. What does it mean when I say millennial? What does that mean? What does it mean? I would go into the fact that people think that it's because we're on our phones all the time and you know, we're not a. and then you know, you don't meet anybody in a bar anymore. You meet them on tinder, you meet them on instagram or snapchat or whatever it is. That's what people say. Right. Which is the point we just made in, in, in terms of word usage. There is some. Okay. Something there, but then there's also the under. So

Speaker 3: you, I, I know from, from, from speaking to people because I like to talk to people that it's frustrating because there's a misconception. Sure. What is the misconception? I guess the misconception is that you can meet in person and online and the digital world deeper than that, I guess is my point. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe we've changed it a little bit. Right? We're changing the whole thing. And so here's, here's where, uh, where I'd like to meet you because I'm, and I mean in the conversation. So it's a third definition. Here's my take on this. Okay. So you hear that millennials are x, millennials are why these are lazy people. They don't, they have no loyalty. Um, they are, uh, uh, oh, there's other words that are just at a, what's the one where I'm very important, self-important, something like that. Uh, yeah, we'll, we'll come back to it, I'll edit it and post self absorbed.

Speaker 3: But there's also, there's another, there's a, there's other words there, but, um, the main thing is entitled, entitled. That's the ones, the one I can create a younger mind. You can use it. Um, so, so that's, you know, these are the words. What I have found though, I think is that um, millennials have a tough time and I am making a rationalization, believing in institutions. And what are your thoughts on my theory? There was just general. Yeah, go into depth a little bit more. Yeah. So I grew up, I saw I'm born 1975, I got the eighties, great time. I got the nineties even better then we get nine slash 11, right? Then we get the Bush years, then we get the economic apocalypse, and then now we have president trump, which no matter which side of the, I'm not getting into a political conversation, but this is not, um, homeostasis. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So let's go back to nine slash 11. How old were you on nine slash 11. It was 10 years old and I was 20 whatever I was. So I understood life a certain way and I understood, uh, institutions to be a certain way and they always work that way and I knew that for you, you've grown up in this chaos.

Speaker 3: Nothing's consistent and it's. Yeah, I see what you're saying. Okay. What are your thoughts? I mean, I didn't live through the eighties and nineties like you did. So yeah, it's, it's kind of a roller coaster a little bit. Yeah. So exciting. Sure. You can call it exciting, but I think that that is literally why the, there's a line in the sand of, of why millennials are spoken about in, in that way, in the, in this other way, and you even talk about who we are this way in any other way as well because you recognize it. Oh yeah. And I think that that might be what is. We do not, you know, all of the generations don't have the same experience. However, the boomers had the sixties and gen x had the nineties and that's pretty Dang close.

Speaker 3: However you had what, you know, the economic apocalypse, the fact that I can't think of anything. That's a problem. That's not good. Well, you have eight out of nine states legalizing cannabis. That's a good point. This is our revolution. I guess. It's fun. And you're here at the forefront. That's right. What a, what a message do you have for other entrepreneurs looking to get into the space? Just cut the cord and get it and go. I mean, people are very scared to cut the cord is what it was. What I like to call it. Do you know, make that jump from, hey, I don't know if I'm going to be able to live in six months, how am I going to afford food and rent and all that? Just get in there. If you want to do something to do it, you're going to regret it.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. How are you affording rent and food? In the beginning it was really hard. I lived with Russ. You remember cousin raices? Yeah, he's 40 and as a wife and kids and you know, I had to. I lived in his basement for a couple months in the beginning and then you know, we were able to get some funding and all that and yeah, it's, it's rough in the beginning. Yeah, it's brutal. Well, congratulations on making it through to another phase it sounds like. Yes. I'm going to ask you the three final questions. I'll tell you what they are and then I'll ask you them in order. First one is what has most surprised you in cannabis? Second is what has most surprised you in life, which who knows what you'll say to that. The third one is on the soundtrack of your life. One track, one song that's got to be on there.

Speaker 3: Okay. First things first though, what has most surprised you in cannabis? What has most surprised me in cannabis? I would say, uh, how many states legalized so quickly over the last couple of years? That was the biggest shock for me because every, everybody was saying that it was going to take a long time to get eight, 10 states that were actually adult use. And so, um, that was a huge shock for me. I'm really excited about it because I think we're going to have a lot more states come online over the next 48 years. There you go. And it's, it's interesting the way that you say that because I'll go back to January first 2014 and when I hear folks that have been in the industry for 10 and then 20 and 30 years, when I asked them, are you surprised about the eight out of nine states on one day?

Speaker 3: They say, absolutely not because this should have happened a really long time ago. Absolutely. And to, to know that it has happened so quickly within this timeframe was fantastic, but it has taken a long time to get here. Yes. Um, what has most surprised you in your 26 years of life? In my 26 years of life, which is just nothing, right? I mean, listen, it's a lot of time to you. It is a lot of time. To me, it's all the time. It's the whole time. What has surprised me most? Can I get an example of what surprised you? Sure. Uh, for me, um, when I say to this usually is that, um, I perceived life to be a kind of a straightforward path when I was in my twenties and when I was in my teens and when I was in a kid when I was a kid, figured it like this. What I'll do, I'll do that, I'll do this, I'll do that. Turns out, um, it's a ridiculous rollercoaster ride. It's, there's ups and downs, there's ins and outs, there's highs, they're low, there's lowe's, there is, there's surprises like every single day. And then in another way it's a boring sometimes. So it's an, it's an extremely life at. My biggest surprise is that life is such an interesting ride. That's pretty deep. I'm not that wise yet. We've got a few more years to get there.

Speaker 3: Honestly, the most surprising thing for me, I mean, I'd say that I have, if you asked me 10 years ago that you'd, Hey, you'd be working in the cannabis industry on this technology company and cannabis making this gamified social app or website. No, I wouldn't exactly know way. And neither would your mother would not say that no father would absolutely not easy lawyer, doctor, you know, one of the above. How proud are they now though, that we actually have something going there. Very proud. All right. Yeah, yeah. Very supportive. Excellent. All right. Final question. Soundtrack of your life. One track one song that's got to be on it. All right. So I would, that's a rough question by the way, which either means that you love music or you don't really love me. There you go. So, so many options. And lately I've been going on a, uh, a nineties alternative grunge thing.

Speaker 3: Look at you lately and we could that completely obsessed with it. So I would say anything from smashing pumpkins is probably going to be on my soundtrack. So. So here's the funny thing about the smashing pumpkins in the nineties when I was a boy, he says they came out and I was like annoyed by them because the high pitched voice and the whole thing and so and I was not a fan and then flash forward like 20 years and I'm in the car and this song comes on which I can't place and I like turn it louder. I'm like, oh, I like this because you know, I just am remembering the past. I'm just remembering being in my twenties so that. So now I like the smashing Pumpkins, so we're on the same page. Perfect. But it's something like 1977 or something like that. I would 1979 or 1979 and you go. Yeah. More current for you, right? Yeah. Yeah. Alec, man, I appreciate your time. Please say hello to my fellow gender, a gen x guy, a cousin, Ross. Okay. I will. Absolutely. Yeah, it's been a pleasure you for your time as well. You guys are having me. We'll talk to you. Get some cool. And there you have Alec from Doobie. I feel like that's a first step, a good step

Speaker 2: generation x and generation y, otherwise known as the millennial generation. Kind of understanding each other, you know, where did we meet? Well that depends also appreciate Bob Hoban up top and of course, appreciate you. Thanks so much for listening.

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Cannabis Economy is a real-time history of legal cannabis. We chronicle how personal and industry histories have combined to provide our current reality.