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Ep.231: Sabrina Fendrick & Andy Bachman

Cannabis Economy Podcast
Ep.231: Sabrina Fendrick & Andy Bachman

Ep.231: Sabrina Fendrick & Andy Bachman

Sabrina Fendrick, Berkeley Patients Group & Andy Bachman, Leafline
Sabrina Fendrick returns and shares what’s happening as California establishes it’s regulatory framework. It’s all happening at once with local municipalities outlining what they’re doing along with the state legislature getting to work. Sabrina also provides a bit of background on her history sharing that her parents were both diplomats meaning that her childhood was nomadic to say the least.
Andy Bachman then joins us to give us a history lesson on Minnesota cannabis. He shares that the limited qualifying condition list has grown and will soon include PTSD. Andy shares how a guy from a farming family found his way into emergency room medicine and how that provided a perfect background for a career in cannabis.

Transcript:

Speaker 1: Sabrina Kendrick and Andy Bachman, Sabrina federick returns and shares. What's happening is California establishes its regulatory framework. It's all happening at once with local municipalities outlining what they're doing along with the state legislature getting to work. Sabrina also provides a bit of background on her history, sharing that her parents were both diplomats, meaning that her childhood was nomadic to say the least. Andy Bachman then joins us to give us a history lesson on Minnesota cannabis. He shares that the limited qualifying condition list has grown and will soon include ptsd. Andy shares how a guy from a farming family found his way into emergency room medicine and how that provided a perfect background for her career in cannabis. Welcome to cannabis economy. I'm your host Seth Adler. Check us out on social with the hand mechanic on me. That's two ends in the word economy. Sabrina federick and Andy Barr.

Speaker 3: So, so here I am, right. I'm standing in the thing and um, you know, just talking to the people. And here comes Sabrina federick walking on by with the ventric smile. And I told you I got very excited that you were just in the room, you know, and I think that that happens to everybody. That's what I was just telling you. That's so sweet. Sabrina, how you been? I've been, well, very busy. Thanks for doing all the stuff so that we can do what we need to do. You know, you're in the meetings, you know.

Speaker 3: Sure. I still tell the story to this day when I dropped by the Berkeley Medical Cannabis Commission. Indeed. And um, it was, you running the meeting from the audience is how I saw it. There were the board members or whatever they're called. There was the commissioner and there, Sabrina kind of. Yeah, I like to um, help, uh, provide some insight and input from my perspective on some of their ideas and their processes. Well, because you know, stuff, right? Yeah. And there's a lot to know and it's um, you know, the, the cannabis, the Berkeley Medical Cannabis Commission is, they're dealing with a lot of new issues while new and old in many ways that there's. And there's a lot of things that you need to be aware of and take into consideration that, you know, really if you're not spending all your time on this all the time for the last 10 years, then you're probably not going to have the kind of perspective that will help guide the creation of truly functional go.

Speaker 3: So I like to impart some wisdom on and, and, uh, for that we appreciate you. So, uh, you know, backing out of Berkeley, but keeping in mind as you go to these kind of a city and county meetings, as we talk about prop 64 as this whole year gets underway because when I'm talking to you, it's February of 2017. What, what's going on? How are we doing as far as, uh, the onset of regulations here in California where we're moving ahead full speed, right? I think we're, we're certainly making up for lost time. We're doing a lot in a short amount of time, doing a hell of a lot in a very short amount of time. It's, it's really good to see. It's something that a lot of people, all of us have been working really hard on for a really long time and you know, now it's all happening all at once and there's so many layers that are happening that go into this.

Speaker 3: It just, you know, you're, you're focusing on the local regulations and then the local regulations are changing to fit in with the medical regulations and then they have, they're trying to change a bit into the adult use or nonmedical I guess is the new technical term, non medical. And then, and then on the state level there's fitting the medical regulations in with the adult nonmedical regulations that whole structure works. So there's the tangled web your weaving, um, as far as folks that are outside of California and very much paying attention or paying attention as much as they can, you know. Yeah. You're reading that Web. What are the biggest kind of things? What are the biggest cogs that are in play as far as the meetings right now? What are the biggest issues besides complying with each other and making sure that we stay in and out of each other's way?

Speaker 3: What issues are there taxes, local taxes and they want them to be high, all want them to be high and um, a lot of people don't understand sort of what's coming from the state and then the state taxes. So there's, that I think is the one that's going to have the biggest impact on everybody because people, some cities are talking about a 10 percent sales tax on top of 15 percent retail tax and then every summer talking about texting at every level of the supply chain on a local level. It's just that is going to completely mess up the whole economy of an market of how it absolutely will. And I think what is on your side, because you're in the policy meetings, I'm not, but what is on our side and your side in particular is Washington state. So are you quoting to folks when you're in meetings, hey look, they taxed it like through the roof and now the black market's coming back in to Washington state.

Speaker 1: Sabrina Kendrick and Andy Bachman, Sabrina federick returns and shares. What's happening is California establishes its regulatory framework. It's all happening at once with local municipalities outlining what they're doing along with the state legislature getting to work. Sabrina also provides a bit of background on her history, sharing that her parents were both diplomats, meaning that her childhood was nomadic to say the least. Andy Bachman then joins us to give us a history lesson on Minnesota cannabis. He shares that the limited qualifying condition list has grown and will soon include ptsd. Andy shares how a guy from a farming family found his way into emergency room medicine and how that provided a perfect background for her career in cannabis. Welcome to cannabis economy. I'm your host Seth Adler. Check us out on social with the hand mechanic on me. That's two ends in the word economy. Sabrina federick and Andy Barr.

Speaker 3: So, so here I am, right. I'm standing in the thing and um, you know, just talking to the people. And here comes Sabrina federick walking on by with the ventric smile. And I told you I got very excited that you were just in the room, you know, and I think that that happens to everybody. That's what I was just telling you. That's so sweet. Sabrina, how you been? I've been, well, very busy. Thanks for doing all the stuff so that we can do what we need to do. You know, you're in the meetings, you know.

Speaker 3: Sure. I still tell the story to this day when I dropped by the Berkeley Medical Cannabis Commission. Indeed. And um, it was, you running the meeting from the audience is how I saw it. There were the board members or whatever they're called. There was the commissioner and there, Sabrina kind of. Yeah, I like to um, help, uh, provide some insight and input from my perspective on some of their ideas and their processes. Well, because you know, stuff, right? Yeah. And there's a lot to know and it's um, you know, the, the cannabis, the Berkeley Medical Cannabis Commission is, they're dealing with a lot of new issues while new and old in many ways that there's. And there's a lot of things that you need to be aware of and take into consideration that, you know, really if you're not spending all your time on this all the time for the last 10 years, then you're probably not going to have the kind of perspective that will help guide the creation of truly functional go.

Speaker 3: So I like to impart some wisdom on and, and, uh, for that we appreciate you. So, uh, you know, backing out of Berkeley, but keeping in mind as you go to these kind of a city and county meetings, as we talk about prop 64 as this whole year gets underway because when I'm talking to you, it's February of 2017. What, what's going on? How are we doing as far as, uh, the onset of regulations here in California where we're moving ahead full speed, right? I think we're, we're certainly making up for lost time. We're doing a lot in a short amount of time, doing a hell of a lot in a very short amount of time. It's, it's really good to see. It's something that a lot of people, all of us have been working really hard on for a really long time and you know, now it's all happening all at once and there's so many layers that are happening that go into this.

Speaker 3: It just, you know, you're, you're focusing on the local regulations and then the local regulations are changing to fit in with the medical regulations and then they have, they're trying to change a bit into the adult use or nonmedical I guess is the new technical term, non medical. And then, and then on the state level there's fitting the medical regulations in with the adult nonmedical regulations that whole structure works. So there's the tangled web your weaving, um, as far as folks that are outside of California and very much paying attention or paying attention as much as they can, you know. Yeah. You're reading that Web. What are the biggest kind of things? What are the biggest cogs that are in play as far as the meetings right now? What are the biggest issues besides complying with each other and making sure that we stay in and out of each other's way?

Speaker 3: What issues are there taxes, local taxes and they want them to be high, all want them to be high and um, a lot of people don't understand sort of what's coming from the state and then the state taxes. So there's, that I think is the one that's going to have the biggest impact on everybody because people, some cities are talking about a 10 percent sales tax on top of 15 percent retail tax and then every summer talking about texting at every level of the supply chain on a local level. It's just that is going to completely mess up the whole economy of an market of how it absolutely will. And I think what is on your side, because you're in the policy meetings, I'm not, but what is on our side and your side in particular is Washington state. So are you quoting to folks when you're in meetings, hey look, they taxed it like through the roof and now the black market's coming back in to Washington state.

Speaker 3: Is that something that you kinda lightly bring up? Yeah, that's, that is definitely mentioned as a warning. Not to do, but their original tax structure was so simple that it's an easy example to use, but the way that California is doing this, and I'm not sure if Washington has a local special local marijuana taxes that's involved, but not quite the same way as California because you guys are doing it all sorts of complex. Right. You know, I mean, yeah, that makes sure that the fiefdoms stay in tact. Hey, Santa Rosa for example, they put out a survey there as they're taking public input, which is great. Yes, thank God. You know, talking about taxing because they're gonna, I'm licensed all different kinds of operations and talking about taxing them at different levels at different times or based on size or based on. So if you have them like vertically integrated business, you're going to be taxed like, you know, 10 percent well anywhere from like five percent to 10 percent retail, two percent to six percent.

Speaker 3: I, I'm not sure on the exact for like manufacturing at each level, at each level, except. Yeah, or in some weird combinations. I mean, it's laid out is a survey, but it's clearly that's sort of the direction that they're going or that's what they're thinking about doing. And if that's an example of, you know, what other cities are going to do that's very concerning, that is not going to work out. They're going to lose all those businesses. They're not going to want to go to that city. So there's something that is, I think, potentially positive in that we actually do have a cannabis industry now and we actually do know what we're doing generally. Um, there are players in the space that do know what they're doing and would know not to go there. And so are we going to kind of see that Santa Rosa opened its doors and no one walked through with them type of thing.

Speaker 3: You know, not that that's an example. You know, I would, if, if they do and they have their taxes as high as they could and I think the smart ones would. But I, you know, just the mere fact that they are going to have an ordinance and be licensing these operations is going to draw people that may not be quite as familiar with the repercussions of those policies. Right. So do your homework. Entrepreneurs that are looking to get in and see an opportunity, do your whole vault in the process. Don't just do your homework parts involved. Why do we have you and follows you? I feel like this is something that I've asked you before. I feel like we might've even had the microphones on, but like it's so, uh, you know, detail oriented and it moves so slowly and so that's why I can't do what you do, but why can you do what you do?

Speaker 3: Like how, why are you built for policy? You know, Gosh, I get the relating to people, right? We talked about the ventric smile, but the attention to detail and like moving at an extremely deliberate pace. That part I don't enjoy it, but you can do it. I can't. What did your parents do when you were growing up? They were diplomats. They were diplomats like actual diplomats from what? For what countries? Uh, American diplomats, but in um. Oh No, I assumed I apologize. Yeah. And they said from what? Yeah. Oh, did, I might have misplaced in order. Let's see. Uh, we were at the UN, the United Nations, France, Paris, South Africa, barbado. And you spend parts of your childhood and all of those places. Most of my childhood. I see. Now, I don't think we've talked about this. So where were most of your formative years? Well, where were my formative years? Like before eight or 10? Well, let's just do this in 10 year periods from zero to 10, where were you from? Zero to 10. I was Barbados, New York, Paris, Hawaii, Washington, DC. Oh my goodness. Where did you live in New York City?

Speaker 3: Twenty seven east 72nd street. I don't know if you need it that much, but that's amazing. That is pretty not be an accurate address. I know it was 72nd street. I gotcha. Upper West is reside. Oh. Oh. So we can go straight down to the UN. That's why. There we go. And then Barbados. What was that like? Do you remember? I was six months old, but there were pictures of made. We had a house on the beach apparently. Did you say Kohai? Polite. You said Hawaii. So not specifically. Where in Hawaii? A on new opera. Do you remember that? Oh yeah. That why did, why would anyone ever leave? I didn't want to. I was really sad. I left and moved to DC. What had what? Eight? Eight. Okay. So then DC, how much time did you spend there? I was there from eight until 12, then moved to South Africa to Johannesburg.

Speaker 3: And that's where you did high school baseball. I did seventh grade in South Africa. And then South Africa is a crazy story because this was. What year was this? Ninety one? 90 six. 90 seven. Okay. So this wasn't a necessarily so stable now. Not necessarily snow. That wouldn't be a word. You would use this? No. Right. It was, um, it was certainly in a developmental period. And so you as a young person, what were you seeing? You're in junior high. So everything's going crazy. Right? I mean, you're doing your whole thing as far as the puberty deal and then outside basically it seems like outside felt like inside, right? As far as. Right. Because yeah, that's a, that's a really good way to put it. I would say, you know, when we got off the plane when we arrived in Johannesburg, the first thing we did was get, um, we had to learn a, what's it called?

Speaker 3: Swahili? No, was it self protection? Self defense. Oh, okay. So 12 year old made sure like our group of like the new families that are off the plane and um, you know, somebody there and I only remember a couple of things, but they're like, Yay. It's like the first thing I remember getting off the plane getting shots and self defense and they were like, you learn how to like stick your fingers in somebody's eye and you have to like me, somebody in the stomach and they bend over. Then you elbow them in the back. It's like some weird, oh my God. Remember numbers. Like remind me never to get on your bedside by the way, but you knew it was going. I will never do it. Would you knew as a 12 year old, this is, this seems out of hand. I mean, I think this whole like moving around and living in all these weird places, it's mainly really adaptable and able to go with the flows.

Speaker 3: It was just like, okay, whatever. Then we went to the house which ended up having like a 10 foot high gate electric fence. Barbed wire. It was at the time it became the murder and rape capitol. Johannesburg city I lived in, became the murder and rape capital of the world. Congratulations. My neighbor got murdered. Oh my God. We had our house broken into. There were. It was. There was something called a wraith gate that basically separated like the bedrooms from the rest of the house that you had to like close and it was so you weren't really allowed to go outside. You had to like stay inside. Everything was gated up bars on all the windows. It was a really nice house. I mean, will this. So you know, you made me think of it when you said we went to the house. I once was offered a job to run an office in South Africa, Johannesburg.

Speaker 3: Oh, okay. And so the CEO of the company says, you know, I really think you should do it. You'll live like a king. And so I asked a couple of followup questions and I said, number one, I don't think that that's the kind king I want to live life. And number two, just my general kind of situation. I don't know if I ever want to live like a king, you know. So I did turn that down to some of those things. I guess. What year was that? That was a to that. I don't know. That would have been like a 10 years ago now, you know, so a little bit. Yeah, like a little less than 10 years or talking about you and so you get to DC.

Speaker 3: Oh. So we ended up curtailing the assignment because there was that all of these people being killed and stuff. And then I think my mom ended up getting a bunch of threats so we ended up having a security guard and it just got worse. The school was crazy. I went to school with a bunch of really insane people. They were all like, Whoa, you know, people, kids have like executives from like Coca Cola and Shell and like arms, African arms dealers, like crazy eclectic group of people. So in many ways the top of the heap and in many ways the bottom of the barrel. Right. And that year I turned 13 on Friday the 13th, but. Well that's good. That's good. Maybe I don't know, it turned out well. I look back now on. I'm grateful for the experience. You're pleased that you have. That's good for me within your soul.

Speaker 3: I think it was good for me, but then we ended up going back to DC and um, my dad went onto Holland to work in The Hague. Sure. And my mom stayed in DC and I mean, was that just purely professional or reserve? A little bit of a. Oh no, they got divorced. Oh yeah. And my parents got separated that year in South Africa to God about that. But that was a good thing in retrospect at the time. And at the time this was not a two people shouldn't have been together anymore and we did that. Friends that we do holidays together. There you go. But what did you at the time, do you remember what the emotion was when you realized, was it a sense of relief when you know, when you realize they were breaking up, when, you know, when they told you, was it a sense of relief?

Speaker 3: Was it a sense of panic? Was it. I never had that experience. It was a relief. The only, um, panic I ever had was the fear that they will get back together. So it was not good. This was not, it was anyway. But yeah, it just all friends now as you said, so DC, then he goes over there, she stays over there, you stay with her. And then where did we go after that? Then we just stayed in DC and that's how we've covered for the next five years. Where did you go to Georgetown? Where did you go to school? In Southeastern Virginia at Christopher Newport University. I don't know what that assistance school at William and Mary. It's Kinda by Virginia Beach. Was that fun? Yeah. What'd you study? Political Communications. Political Communications. That makes sense. And ended up writing my senior thesis on marijuana prohibition, but I didn't know I was going to do that until second semester of my senior year.

Speaker 3: Which, what happened during your second semester of senior year? I. Well, how did you get turned on, Sabrina? It turned on. I was going to do my own thing about like the Iraq war and the invasion and how Bush like made everyone believe that nine slash 11 was connected and that was like my whole obsession because I was a mile from the Pentagon when it got hit and it was, that was so close to home, literally literally. And I was in New York, so anyway, go on. So, um, I just, you know, discovered pot and got busted for pot my junior year. And you did get busted. Oh yeah.

Speaker 3: In other words throw that out or was it kind of. No, it was, it was quite dramatic. My friend. It's hilarious and dramatic. It's quite traumatic or dramatic. Both. So my friend, um, my roommate at the time was a police aide and this was when facebook, before facebook, when facebook first started, you can only be a college student on it and not every college was on it. They didn't even have pictures on it, right? It was just like, you listed your classes and you could write on walls and stuff. And so, um, my junior year they added, they started my sophomore year, my junior year they added pictures and my idiot friends and I all thought it would be hilarious to like the post pictures of all of us smoking pot but delirious genius, brilliant, brilliant, genius. So, um, but it was, you know, you're thinking only college students can be on it and you know, the idea of knocking people out didn't really cross my mind just because you didn't know.

Speaker 3: I just didn't know this is youth, this is, this is, this is what set me on the course for the rest of my life. There you go. Facebook pictures. And so what, how did they find out? My roommate was a police aide and it was like looking at pictures one night thing and is like super like conservative religious police. A friend saw and told one of the cops who ended up forcing him to come back to my, our house. It was like a group house. There was four of us that lived there at 6:30 in the morning, banging on the door made me. I just bought the most beautiful bag and you could not get it, will not get paid. It was like the most beautiful eighth of like neon green weed. And I was so excited. I had only smoked one blunt of it the night before.

Speaker 3: And the cop, like I opened the door. I know nothing about my rights because nobody ever taught me anything. So I don't. And so we start like, yeah. And like, no, you can't actually search my shit. I'm actually not even on campus. So you shouldn't even be here right now. Like I didn't even know any of that. And um, so he starts looking around and he finds like my weed or. Well then he started going through doors and I was like, sure you can do that, I don't know. And he was like, well, do you want me to call the, I can call the Newport news police department if you want. I was like, okay, whatever. And he's like gathering up all my grandmother admittance or a denial that, you know, an interesting few words. He knew what he was doing. Of course, of course.

Speaker 3: Um, so then we, we got busted and got sent to judicial affairs and I got assigned the book because you had to like read a book and write a letter to your parents and write an essay about the book. So I got assigned a million little pieces, I don't know if you remember that crazy book and it was a crazy drug addict and wasn't involved and got mad because it turned out he was lying. Just hilarious because our school's biggest thing was like being honest in line was like, no, no. And that came out as I was doing my thing and I was like, so I don't know if I should be doing this. This isn't lying a big no, no. In our campus. Should I maybe switched? She was like, just pretend like that didn't have any. Just. Okay, fine. But my roommate got assigned reefer madness by Eric Schlosser.

Speaker 3: Wow. Look at that. You can't make that up. I cannot make that up. I have no idea why she did that. I mean it was. Maybe this was just some, I don't know, but he was like, Sabrina, you should read this book. It's actually really interesting about the history of like a marijuana prohibition. He gave it to me. I still have it and I started reading it and that was. That was it. I was just. The more I read, the angrier I got, the more I researched and I was just like, what the fuck is going on? How is this even like illegal and got angrier and angrier or reading more and more and more and finally decided my, I'm a second semester senior year. I was going to switch my thesis. I bet every essay I had written almost in every project had been on Iraq and nine slash 11, but I switched the whole thing and change it, change it to, uh, the evolution of reefer madness propaganda since the beginning, from each decade and how it went from like crazy, like murdering, raping too, like lethargic, Lazy.

Speaker 3: But the only thing that stays the same as the fact that it should still be illegal, but they kept changing the reason why. Of course, we just need a means now. We need that means to be different. Just as long as it stays this way. Did you cite any sources like Jack Herrera or any of that? I cited all. I mean, this was my thesis in the whole thing. I was. Yeah, and this was before I started working at normal course. It was when I, when I finally got involved, I was that I've been talking about star struck at everybody and made, oh man, all these people that I cited in my stories that I would have to email the organizer for conferences and it's just, Oh man, I was so, so excited. I still am. It's still a very exciting, but I think what you're telling me though is I was younger than I was much internet, which so the excitement level is a little bit higher.

Speaker 3: It just feels more vibrant, but you still have the same amount of excitement, but just tell us about sitting down with Keith for the first time at normal because you. That was your first job out of college, right? A real. Yeah. So since you're sitting down with Keith and you're like, I want the job and what it was actually with Alan. Oh, okay. All right. St Pierre. I was actually temping at MPP before. Oh, look at you. So you know what you were doing sort of. Yeah, I mean I was stepping on blowups at MPP. I was, I'd moved home. My mom lived in DC and they were advertising in the paper that they were hiring glad. I was like, all right, well I don't pay rent, I just need to make money to buy weed. So I'll go step on the lips at MPP and apply for a job there and didn't get it.

Speaker 3: And then I saw that normal was hiring and applied for the job there and sat down with Alan and they weren't even hiring for an executive assistant, but they hired me as the executive assistant. But the first time I met Keith, or the first thing I remember Keith ever saying to me was at a conference room table where we were all meeting five of us and he goes, there. Three of us were new. He goes, if there's one thing that, that you know about normal is that we are marijuana smokers and we are proud of it.

Speaker 3: I'm in the right place with you by leader. All right? So we ran out of time because you got to do it. The other thing, just a final question on the soundtrack of your life, one track, one song that's got to be guru. The medicine. I'll look at that. I mean that's obvious, right? In so many ways. Did you ask me this a few months ago and I can give you that same song. Do you have one more? We just don't have the time. So you don't have the time, but I'm going to be thinking about it. So next time asking you that question again. Okay. Of course I will and I ask it every time I have to have a new answer. You will have a new way I trust in you. Sabrina Federick, we trust in you. Thank you for having me. Of course.

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Speaker 4: There you go. You'll be fine once we get some work on it. We're getting closer, it seems like. Yeah. We'll ask them a scope.

Speaker 5: You're starting to talk. You're starting to sound like a doctor who works in cannabis, which, uh, all lines up, doesn't it?

Speaker 4: It, it sure does. It's about time that we, a medical people workings in medical cannabis and Minnesota, a lot of credit for making that possible would. They're highly regulated scrutinize and highly medicinal medical model on the bed they put in place.

Speaker 6: How did you get involved in this whole thing? I mean, we're happy to have you, but where did this all start for you?

Speaker 4: Well, first of all, thank you for having me. Thank you for your interest. And thank you for saying that. I'm a combination of passions really. My family has been in the horticulture and landscape in Metro area, twin cities in Minnesota for 132 years. So my great, great grandfather started a company that essentially was the family farm and the family farm that has now spawned a number of locations throughout the state of Minnesota. Several others in other states within the region now scale back to just being Minnesota located. But uh, the main store. So located on the family farm where he settled after immigrating here from Germany a hundred and 32 years ago, he started a company with his five sons and gave acreage to all of them and each of them grew vegetables for the most part to sell out of a roadside vegetable stand.

Speaker 4: But my great grandfather switched and was the original, a diplomatic disruptor and grew flowers instead, which actually is what took off because they could get vegetables anywhere, but ours were hard to come. Um, so five generations later, after my great, great grandfather, uh, I'm the black sheep of the family who thought that instead of spending time in a beautiful green house where everything smelled nice and everybody smiled all the time and classical music was pumped in and the hours were great, uh, that, that sounded awful. So I decided to go into medicine and became an emergency medicine doctor practicing here. This one cities for 11 years and a horticulture meets healthcare. Uh, this was a perfect confluence of events.

Speaker 6: So we haven't talked about know Minnesota cannabis too much, but as far as the state of things, it seems to be finding footing. Whereas, uh, it was somewhat precarious before. Is that fair?

Speaker 4: Well, we've always been an unrealistic expectation to reality is what to expect in a space that's never existed before. The second State to legalize medical cannabis and Kim, the first truly medicinal medical cannabis market in America with an extract only program. I'm very restrictive initially with going and missions that were group, many of which one of which specifically terminal illness and oftentimes you don't anticipate having those patients in the program very long because the condition itself, I believe requires 12 months lifespan. So you've sort of already in this position where they threw out a number of, we expect 5,000 patients in the first year. I think that was all, was realistic. Minnesota is a fairly progressive by a medical state and yet fairly conservative population overall. And at the end of the day, we just knew what was right and we knew that this needed to be done when we knew nobody would do it better and can't sleep by labs with was born.

Speaker 6: Congratulations on that. And I want to get back into your story in a minute. I want to make sure that we catch up on where things have come from in terms of Minnesota catalysts. You said don't realistic expectations to begin with with limited qualifying conditions. Uh, when did we get new qualifying conditions and, uh, you know, just take us through the history.

Speaker 4: Fairly Limited. Intractable pain was actually written into our statute initially that condition to be considered for addition by the Commissioner of the Department of Health, which is our regulator here in Minnesota. Appropriate that the medical industry should be regulated before us. So we added intractable pain. We actually were able to work with our lobbyists in order to move up the date at which intractable pain became active. Uh, so that we can start helping people immediately, especially in the opiod crisis, etc. And we on July 1st last year, started registering. Those pAtients were able to start seeing them one month later. We subsequently actually authored the petition that added transdermal and topical formulations as a part of Minnesota. His program and the ptsd subsequently was approved on the same date, December 1st of last year, which will go live August 1st of this year. The intractable pain is now on board is set to be coming on board, uh, august of this year.

Speaker 6: Why the hesitation? What's the delay from my perspective? I'm sure it's, it's wonderful that it's coming online. But, uh,

Speaker 4: emergency physician slowly for the game. We all wanted it yesterday. I would agree with your various, uh, you know, we've already established that we've already established that our program is to formulations or say. And so when you then say there are not enough medications with only refer to fda approved medicine that quarterly treat ptsd, uh, that this is a real alternative based on studies, etc. That are out there. Now you have a perfect setup to actually get this on board immediately. What? Twenty two veterans a day killing themselves. We got work to do today or yesterday. So I, I agree with you, it's frustrating. We can seem to do the work that isn't necessarily as you know, well, politically in the space to affect change locally, regionally and federally with lobbyists active at all levels because it's such an important piece to this industry.

Speaker 6: We get the to know what you're talking about now. Thank you for the history lesson. But

Speaker 4: right

Speaker 6: it turns out that it was indeed. So, you know, how does a guy that could've gone into flowers go into emergency medicine instead? I mean that obviously it's not necessarily the opposite, but uh, it seems like, uh, you were trying to get as far away as possible from the family business. Is that fair

Speaker 4: sort of aspired to be a physician or certainly to in cannabis back when I was an eagle scout, but it was Just a series of decisions. Right? I love this quote by my mantra for our company and certainly for me personally just do the best you can everyday, but when you know better, do better and I just have always pursued my passions. I was born and raised here in minneapolis, Minnesota, but went to amherst college and then stayed out east and went to georgetown for med school where I got my lesson in politics one on one just by living in that climate for four years. So it's made me quite cynical about politics for a very long period of time and I can't tell you the excitement I feel and the vigor I feel for being able to actually affect change that matters immediately for so many in this space. This is doing what I love in healthcare, which was being a bedside medicine physician is something I absolutely love. I think I did it well. This is a chance to do that, but

Speaker 6: I love the quote that you referenced by maya angelou that it's perfect. Anybody can take that as advice when you say that you needed to do what you loved, you know, and obviously is, as we talk here, I'm getting the sense and you know, we talked before, I get the sense that, uh, you know, this is the right thing for you and even emergency medicine was the right thing for you. BuT how did you find that within yourself? In other words? Uh, what was that? Uh, was there a moment in time where you said, oh, you know, what I need to do is this.

Speaker 4: I mentioned the long standing tradition, established company here in town, but didn't mention my mother who raised three boys essentially by herself most of the time she went through dental school, junior high school. And so I got a chance to see her pursue her dreams, which always were to be a caregiver. And she did it right before my very eyes. It just so happened that in the sixties when she was going to college, that the options for women at the time or not being a caregiver, a teacher, you'd be a mother, you can be a nurse. But as far as being a physician or a dentist, that really wasn't something that was offered to her as a career option. I think I was similarly inspired by that sort of caregiving aspect of things from my mom. It's been very influential in my life. But, uh, I would just say that it's truly just following what you love.

Speaker 4: I love the sciences, I loved biology, but I love people, I love talking to people about things. I love learning. I love, you knoW, knowing something about everything, hence the emergency medicine angle, which is sort of the catchall of medicine, pediatrics, a little bit of everything that I would want to be, um, but I also love sports and sports medicine, putting your hands on problems, fixing it and moving on, fixing it again, uh, and being able to do that. I thought for awhile that orthopedics was a way to go, but emergency medicine I, it was more on the front lines where I need to be.

Speaker 6: The connection obviously with your mother and who she is. Makes a, makes more sense. It kind of ties the knot. Can you give us a sense of what it's like in an emergency room? You're telling us, you know, hey, it's great because I get to do a little of this, a little bit of this, a little bit of this, which, which all sounds good, but I've been to an emergency room and um, you know,

Speaker 4: what's that at the emergency room?

Speaker 6: Sure. But like, you know, as the caregiver, as the person that we are, depending on, can you share what it's like to maybe just you know, have a shift a if not a week of shifts or a month of shifts are a couple of years of shifts.

Speaker 4: My wife's in emergency medicine, emergency medicine, oldest program in the country, but we both had seen this evolution and this is another thing that drew me to this space is that we are doing in a certain way a certain speed or method versus. That doesn't mean it's right. It's best in medicine is all about questioning and doing better in doing the best you can for the patient. So I would just say a shift. I ended up working a lot of nights in the evenings as we have a family and my wife would take most of the day shifts and we were able to kind of flip flops. Just that when you go through a shift and you can see 20 people off in critically ill over a period of eight hours. We had started a urgency room concept, which is sort of a freestanding er concept here in Minnesota when I was with my former company and we basically would see 56 patients and seven hours, eight hours just going constantly fairly standard, and then you're not meeting, you're not going to the bathroom that there's no thought for yourself.

Speaker 4: It's all about just taking care of the patients and trying to handle excess volume with very few bodies. So it's a very challenging career. The average a three year span of an emergency medicine physician this country, about seven years and that rate at which we're getting sued in this country. There's also seven years coincidentally for me. So fortunately, you know, we both had a prolonged career clinically practice, uh, enjoying every minute of it. But when this opportunity came about is truly historic opportunity, it wasn't even so much of a question or a decision and just sort of was the evolution of smaller decisions. And next thing you know, here we are

Speaker 6: kind of emotionally, uh, you know, you described it as, as it hit your id, but you know, how did this come to fruition? So here's two emergency room doctors, uh, you know, doing what they can for as many years as they can. As you mentioned, you know, there, there is only so much time that, uh, one can, can really put in at, at, uh, at that heightened. Um, you know, I mean, I can't even imagine. No, no, no bathroom, no eating. And that's every day. Um, when did this cannabis thing come to you? When did you come to cannabis? How did that all occur?

Speaker 4: Emergency medicine, western medicine in this country, especially with the opiate epidemic by the cdc and others for years in this country. It's an epidemic of our own creation. You know, physicians are responsible, pharmacists are responsible insurance companies that are responsible. Yes, big pharma's responsible, but people are dying. And when you see the kinds of things we see everyday in the work you've put in to try to say that one person in front of you, when you know that 30,000 aMericans are dying from opiate overdose, um, we got a problem and that feels like you're sitting in the patient at the bedside, but the whole hospital, it doesn't do any good. You still feel like you're losing ground. One out of every five Hundred 50 opioid prescriptions in America is associated with opioid prescription opioid overdose death. And in my estimation, that is the game of russian roulette with a bigger bedroom.

Speaker 4: Uh, and that was not something I was interested in me and ParT of anymore. But emergency medicine iS for a Decade plus really, um, are all conferences, et cetera, through the american college conversation. And you know, it just started to get more legs, if you will, over the last number of years. And was we started to see the empirical results of that. The case study to secure in their sunday group does. We'd episode, for example, gave us, I give him a lot of credit for putting the focus on an industry and making people think differently in question why, why not? What if suddenly, you know, it was just, we knew we were the right people to do this. That's from Minnesota and when you know that you will do it best for the state you have, there's not really a decision to be made. There's just action and that's basically where the find was born.

Speaker 6: How did you get the license and just give us the big tent. pole machinations

Speaker 4: credibly challenges several months, so we live in a state where the governor pleasantly as stated previously that he would never sign any cannabis legislation. There was very little hope actually for getting legs here locally. It was more being active on doing the research and attention to what's out there. Participating in international conferences. I was on the board of our state chapter of our national organization, did advocacy work across the country, so we were aware, but we had this kind of skeptical local scenario. Then suddenly things changed again in the wake of sanjay gupta. Special, I think there was more discussion, more attention being paid, anD then there was a series of about 12 moms of kids with seizure disorders who were not being treated adequately with their current regimen of cellular. For example, a little girl, my heart emilia, she was, had failed 23 different western medicines and was still having seizures up to 100 times per day and had for seven years.

Speaker 4: So essentially making her parents every other night take call, you know, watching all night long knowing that she would, but just making sure she wouldn't get hurt when she did me. I can't imagine what that is like as a parent to know that your loved one is going to suffer and go through this if your goal isn't to stop the suffering aids, to minimize the damage so to speak. So, uh, needless to say they had a voice that became very powerful very quickly in the legislature. We were active at that time, helping to educate the legislature on why this is a good idea of why positioning community can support this and to help educate the law enforcement community specifically, which was a specific roadblock, understandably with them not knowing what exactly the program here was they were being asked to do and did a lot of work, you know, speaking to sheriffs and police and border to border north to south, east to west and just spending the time and educating the bill becomes law, uh, in that summer.

Speaker 4: And we had basically three months from July 1st until October 3rd when applications were due for the appliance. So an rfa that went out there were 12 Applicants. The fee was $20,000 to apply the actual costs of bringing our applications and fruition was far greater than the printing costs alone of our application or somewhere in that $80,000 range. So there were specific rules on what you had to satisfy. And basically we had to demonstrate that we could be operational in three months time ready to accept the registration, hit the ground running and have medicine on shelves on July 1st, 2015, the a care center, which is people say dispensary nationally. BuT we think this year in Minnesota, since it's a vertically integrated business, is more, more than a transactional place as a place of care, I think a bit more like a clinic concept. Um, and so basically the care centers had to be at least range.

Speaker 4: You had to have land set out and we basically decided on a solution that was innovative and an industry leading to purchase land and then build a state of the art 42,000 square foot grow facility, first of its kind of America that is designed and built solely for this purpose to do this exceedingly well. and went about getting things done. So we had our application in by October 3rd, there were 12 applicants. It's total of one with this qualified for a requirement that they didn't reach so 11 at the end of the day. And they selected two manufacturers, which in Minnesota in vertically integrated, uh, it is a manufacturer. You are a cultivator, a extractor, packager, formulator, distributor, picture delivery side of things too.

Speaker 5: Sounds a lot like emergency medicine,

Speaker 4: the spectrum, but it's really, it's one of the things I liked about, gets a little grandiose, but I truly believe that we are set up to inspire at least if not actually reform healthcare via a model like this because what we have done is to have to kick professional caregivers, my partner that gregarious double boarded in emergency medicine and family medicine and myself to jump off the cliff so to speak. And basically just when you have an idea to actually make healthcare the way it should be, how best to care for people. We've cared for people professionally for 25 years, but we have never had the opportunity to design that says, see whAt that looks like without third party, without incentives that take people down the wrong roads here and there and everywhere. You can just have caregivers and people who need care in the same place at the same time and actually do that best.

Speaker 4: And most efficiently, because there are no rules in a space that is a, despite being extremely highly regulated, it's due to liquidity, federal laws. There's no really set up federal structure here so We can actually design it. And it ended up being an amazing system because we see patients 12 times a year. I'm in Minnesota, you can only get 30 days worth of medicine had a visit. So we see people back again and again the primary that maybe she's a once. So we actually have become, if you will, the primary caregiver for 4,541 minutes, which is pretty amazing when you think about it,

Speaker 6: if you will just lined it up, that's you're seeing the patient way more often than, uh, uh, than any other physician, no matter what it says on my, uh, on my insurance card or whatever. So

Speaker 4: individuals go back and talk to their primary doctor and have that discussion and say, well, why don't you take care of me? They've seen me five minutes, 45 minutes. And When they see me, they talked to me for 60 minutes, face to face. Not sitting here typing into electronic medical records the patient and they actually, instead of looking at objective lab tests and just for this one the other day for a patient a I'm sorry, went to see his doctor or getting better from your multiple sclerosis, those numbers are looking better and your mri's looking better, you're getting better, but it can be along and the last time you went and he cooked, and I've never looked up from his computer long enough to see the patient and then care for the patient. They're getting worse. Objective numbers don't tell the whole story about human experience and quality of life. And that's what we're passionate about. This taking care of people, uh, in every sense of the word.

Speaker 6: That is an amazing anecdote as far as you know, here we are in the beginning of 2017. Um, what, what does this year look like for lifeline? You know, how Is the program shaking out? How are patients shaking out, how's, how's everything? Look from your perspective,

Speaker 4: a good day for us. So we are truly honored and humbled to be in the space. We have done a significant amount of work in order to get a legislated the growth, I should say for care centers opening for different congressional districts across the state of Minnesota. I mentioned there's one other manufacturer similarly has the same requirements and different congressional districts so that you have this legislated diversity of locations for people to receive medicine for people to receive care across Minnesota. And we have done a significant amount of work in ensuring that we are crossing t's, dotting i's and remaining say for me, I'm secure and being compliant above all else because that is what is required in this space, especially right now, especially given the highly restricted and we're heavily regulated program here in Minnesota. And it turns out there are a lot of folks in the space who don't necessarily play by those rules, but that's the way that this needs to be done. Medicine needs to be consistent. Medicine needs to be reproducible science. And that is what will help to advance the industry as a whole really across the country. Um, and we see a kind of the extract market a significantly growing even in states where they're not legislated to be only like we are in Minnesota and we just happen to be experts in that space, which is I think, a very formidable space to be in right now.

Speaker 6: That brings us to tomorrow. But since we're not there yet, I'll ask you the three final questions today and I'll tell you what they are and then I'll ask you them in order. What has most surprised you in cannabis? What has most surprised you in life and on the soundtrack of your life? Andy, what is one track, one song that's got to be on there? But first things first, what has most surprised you in cannabis? You might have spoken to this, but uh, as an answer to that question, what would you give me?

Speaker 4: I understand why necessarily innovative people in the space, but there's also just has been in the shadows and things like that. The industry needs to Breathe, so to speak, and a client discrimination once in a. This is amazing that a student has been for millennia on planet or to clearly coevolve with this incredibly well and I love every aspect of it. It's an amazing, amazing survivor and a truly humbled to get the chance to work around that vigorous life each and every day out of their headquarters in cottage grove. So I would say it's just mainly the need to kind of bring this industry more into the light and have it be appropriately researched and normalized in these things.

Speaker 5: That's well said. What would you add as far as what's been your biggest surprise in life?

Speaker 4: Say generally surprised. Especially in emergency medicine at all times. So, you know, quite frankly, especially right now, it seems like it's totally smooth sailing and there wasn't like a little fire to put out or surprised you probably took a wrong turn to go back and rethink about it. So, um, I, I would say in general, I love the moments. I love the days. I never take anything for granted, uh, given my career, a lot of credit for that because you see folks who just died for no reason. Sometimes they just do, you know, at age 32 or a traumatic accident. I remember seeing a whole volunteer who is competing and then big kind of indoor championships came in through our estate room, that kind of time, medical center and he never left the mat and landing on his head and being so profoundly moved by it. seniors parents come in with their college sweaters on and here's a kiddo who didn't get that chance. So I really grateful to emergency medicine men, mentors that kind of medical center for having spilled in me. That kind of belief, that enjoyment that, that drive to make moments matter to make days because you don't necessarily have tomorrow or guarantee.

Speaker 5: That's certainly the case. I've spoken about my mom before so I won't bring it up again. I'll bring it up with you privately. And anybody who listens to this is hard enough, at least for the time being. Um, as far as the soundtrack, What does the, a

Speaker 4: I would say if you gave me a whole album, I might say either Ryan Adams heartbreak or, or damien rice bowl would be true for sure. Maybe sweet carolina and her sweet carolina. But Ryan Adams.

Speaker 5: Fair enough. I, uh, again,

Speaker 6: this is a great way to understand of what age people are as well because, uh, Ryan Adams fence usually fall within a, uh, a, a layer of humanity as so to speak as far as age is concerned.

Speaker 4: Right? Yeah.

Speaker 6: There you go, man. You're doIng amazing things to use the word. Appreciate your, your time here and just keep going. I, uh, I have no doubt that you won't, you know, you sound like a guy that's just a not going to stop until it's done. Right.

Speaker 4: 8 million people. and we've been at this for a bit of time and you can imagine this kind of view that people have, that you put a seed in the ground. There is a significant amount of work in capital required in order to do this right. And it is the only way that we would ever be in the space and the only way we would ever operate anything much less this industry is to do it the right way because this at the end of the day is medicine for people and then medicine must be consistent and must be reproducible if we get great results, which we have our first year in the program, we thought over it with 95 percent patient satisfaction, zero adverse health zero. Now we see about 1500 patients a month. So the growth has been rapid. We've grown from 11 employees last february to 70 today and it is amazing to be a part of that, but it must be done right and responsibly and compliantly by everybody to bring legitimacy to the industry. And that's something we are very proud to say we are doing and doing well, which will open up other opportunities here in the heartland. Healthcare from the heartland who their thought turns out it wouldn't be the first company from Minnesota to demonstrate some biomedical innovation being the home of three mayo. And so we've kind of earned the right place at the right time, doing the right way.

Speaker 6: We'll see you down the line. All right. Thanks so much for your time.

Speaker 4: No question. I really, really appreciate your interest and thanks for being interested.

Speaker 1: Very much appreciate his time. Obviously doing a well, what he was meant to do there in Minnesota and of course very much appreciate talking to sabrina federick again already. Can't wait til the next time. very much appreciate you and your listenership can wait till the next time.

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Cannabis Economy is a real-time history of legal cannabis. We chronicle how personal and industry histories have combined to provide our current reality.