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Ep.235: Jim Patterson, Eaze

Cannabis Economy Podcast
Ep.235: Jim Patterson, Eaze

Ep.235: Jim Patterson, Eaze

Jim Patterson joins us and adds himself to the astonishingly long list of cannabis industry executives who have previously served in the military. He kindly takes us through his experience and how it informed his leadership skills and how he realized that he was an entrepreneur. Going from Kuwait to Los Angeles he joined the Yammer team with Keith McCarty. Jim takes us through the fact that the team certainly had a sense of constant momentum before being sold to Microsoft and the ultimate exit. He had to put in some time under Redmond leadership which allowed him to experience “Steve Ballmer doing his thing” in his words. After launching his own company called CoTap (now ZiNC), Keith eventually called Jim and asked him to lead Eaze…Jim then takes us through how in fact he’s doing just that.

Transcript:

Speaker 1: Jim Patterson, Jim Patterson joins us in ads himself to the astonishingly long list of cannabis industry, executives who have previously served in the military that you kindly takes us through his experience and how it informed his leadership skills and how he realized that he was an entrepreneur going from to Los Angeles. He joined the Yammer team with Keith McCarty. Jim takes us through the fact that the team certainly had a sense of constant momentum before being sold to Microsoft and the ultimate exit. He had to put in some time under Redmond leadership, which allowed them to experience Steve Balmer doing his thing in his words, after launching his own company called tap, Keith eventually called Jim and asked him to lead ease. Jim then takes us through how in fact he's doing just that walk into cannabis economy. I'm your host Seth Adler. Check us out on social with the Hammock can economy that students in word economy. Jim Patterson.

Speaker 2: Wow. So it's the same kind of thing. Just keep it all. Keep it all together. Absolutely. And you know, like if, if, if the other person, whether it's a business relationship or personal relationship is intuit homage to it, but if they're not, I don't need to be into it anymore. Yeah. You know, again, feel free to. Yeah. So, so Jim, I'm looking at a guy, you know, everybody's in cannabis, right? Anybody can be in cannabis. You don't look like an original. You don't look like an Oji type of cannabis guy. Is that fair? Fair? I am definitely not a. In fact, up until I started at ease, which was about 10 months ago, I never even used cannabis ever, ever. And that has changed. It has changed. We might get into that if we get a chance. Um, you're one of these tech people. Yeah, I mean, I definitely consider myself more of a tech person than a cannabis person.

Speaker 2: I think, you know, what's great about ease? I do think it's the intersection of both. It is at high definition. Yeah. I mean at heart we are a tech company where, you know, we're in silicon valley, we're in San Francisco. Um, you know, the majority of the company here are people whose background is from other tech companies, less so from the cannabis industry. Yours of course, being a, at least Yammer, which is where you met Keith. So Keith and I both started on the founding team at Yammer back in 2008 actually in Los Angeles, um, where Yammer was, was originally founded. And Yeah, we worked together there for about four years. Um, Microsoft eventually acquired the company, you know, both him and I stuck around for sort of the requisite 12 month period. And then, you know, we're both, that was in the thing you had to write or you would leave a lot of money on the table.

Speaker 2: Uh, so yeah, so we did that and then we both basically left to start our own companies around the same time. So Keith ended up doing ease. Um, I ended up starting another company called Co Tab, which was much more similar to Yammer. It was more of a sort of mobile messaging version of Yammer. Well, let's, let's talk about code type in a second. Let's remind everybody what Yammer was. So here are these, this founding team in La, are you from California? Now? I'm from Boston. Well, how did that happen? Well, it's interesting. So I was in Boston working on a similar idea. Uh, I saw that yammer launched. It ended up winning tech crunch 50. Uh, I was like, well, these guys look like they're farther ahead of me. I sent an email to Adam [inaudible] who is one of the cofounders? No, uh, they flew me out and did an interview, got the job, pack my stuff and moved to La.

Speaker 1: Jim Patterson, Jim Patterson joins us in ads himself to the astonishingly long list of cannabis industry, executives who have previously served in the military that you kindly takes us through his experience and how it informed his leadership skills and how he realized that he was an entrepreneur going from to Los Angeles. He joined the Yammer team with Keith McCarty. Jim takes us through the fact that the team certainly had a sense of constant momentum before being sold to Microsoft and the ultimate exit. He had to put in some time under Redmond leadership, which allowed them to experience Steve Balmer doing his thing in his words, after launching his own company called tap, Keith eventually called Jim and asked him to lead ease. Jim then takes us through how in fact he's doing just that walk into cannabis economy. I'm your host Seth Adler. Check us out on social with the Hammock can economy that students in word economy. Jim Patterson.

Speaker 2: Wow. So it's the same kind of thing. Just keep it all. Keep it all together. Absolutely. And you know, like if, if, if the other person, whether it's a business relationship or personal relationship is intuit homage to it, but if they're not, I don't need to be into it anymore. Yeah. You know, again, feel free to. Yeah. So, so Jim, I'm looking at a guy, you know, everybody's in cannabis, right? Anybody can be in cannabis. You don't look like an original. You don't look like an Oji type of cannabis guy. Is that fair? Fair? I am definitely not a. In fact, up until I started at ease, which was about 10 months ago, I never even used cannabis ever, ever. And that has changed. It has changed. We might get into that if we get a chance. Um, you're one of these tech people. Yeah, I mean, I definitely consider myself more of a tech person than a cannabis person.

Speaker 2: I think, you know, what's great about ease? I do think it's the intersection of both. It is at high definition. Yeah. I mean at heart we are a tech company where, you know, we're in silicon valley, we're in San Francisco. Um, you know, the majority of the company here are people whose background is from other tech companies, less so from the cannabis industry. Yours of course, being a, at least Yammer, which is where you met Keith. So Keith and I both started on the founding team at Yammer back in 2008 actually in Los Angeles, um, where Yammer was, was originally founded. And Yeah, we worked together there for about four years. Um, Microsoft eventually acquired the company, you know, both him and I stuck around for sort of the requisite 12 month period. And then, you know, we're both, that was in the thing you had to write or you would leave a lot of money on the table.

Speaker 2: Uh, so yeah, so we did that and then we both basically left to start our own companies around the same time. So Keith ended up doing ease. Um, I ended up starting another company called Co Tab, which was much more similar to Yammer. It was more of a sort of mobile messaging version of Yammer. Well, let's, let's talk about code type in a second. Let's remind everybody what Yammer was. So here are these, this founding team in La, are you from California? Now? I'm from Boston. Well, how did that happen? Well, it's interesting. So I was in Boston working on a similar idea. Uh, I saw that yammer launched. It ended up winning tech crunch 50. Uh, I was like, well, these guys look like they're farther ahead of me. I sent an email to Adam [inaudible] who is one of the cofounders? No, uh, they flew me out and did an interview, got the job, pack my stuff and moved to La.

Speaker 2: We're going, let's put, let's still, we have to go back because this is an investigative, I don't like to call the reporting, but at least conversational ism. Uh, which is an ISM. A Boston. So does that mean Harvard or Mit now? Actually went to vanderbilt in Nashville. What the hell? Where are you from? I'm from Boston. So you're from Boston. Grew up, I would imagine. You remember the eighties? A vaguely. Vaguely. You remember the nineties? Yes. Do you remember Mike Greenwell? Maybe playing oil? Yep. Okay. All right. Is that about right? Okay. Because you bogs raid box, right? Railed. Jim Rice, him rice. Well Jim Rice was before Mike Greenwell. Yeah. So that's good. That's a good lens. Of course. Clements. Yeah. Roger Clemens. Turns out that guy played baseball and also maybe some other stuff. Yeah. But we're not going to talk about that because it's a whole different set of questions.

Speaker 2: So Boston, you love the Boston Red Sox, you also love the Patriots. Right? Okay. So like, you know, as far as the rest of humanity, we don't understand Bill Bella, check. We don't understand, you know, whatever his name is. What's the quarterback that guy, brady, Tom Brady. So we don't get what, what it is, right? We say, oh, look at what they do and the horrible thing with the drones. And you're like, no, these are winners. Yeah. Winning. It's just haters. Gonna hate. Yeah, exactly. So that is officially a Bostonian. We have established this. There's no question about. Correct. Okay. So why did you go to Vanderbilt in Tennessee? Um, I mean a lot of it was just I wanted to at the time, Kinda go somewhere a little farther. It actually was the farther school that I applied to, um, you know, all my life wanted to go to tufts, um, which was very close to us right down the block, very close to where I live.

Speaker 2: Um, and then vanderbilt when I visited it was very similar, but uh, but just farther away, much farther away. Also the girls in the south are tend to be a little better looking. That's what it was. I was gonna ask why didn't you go to tufts? You certainly could have. And then you just admitted it and I visited the campus and didn't want to leave. It was like, this is where I live now. All right. So, uh, how's Tennessee as a, as a college guy? It was really fun. I mean, you know, being a sort of northeastern guy in, in Nashville, I definitely, you know, freshman year I had an accent which I quickly sort of eliminated. Everyone just called me a Yankee, which are a Boston person is kind of a double insult because I think of that as in New York people, people I can't, I can't speak going to call me that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I can not be cold. Yeah. Okay, fair enough. So you've got rid of the accident. What did you study? Computer Science. That makes sense based on where we are right now. Uh, did you, were, you were always kind of a math kind of computer science kind of guy or um, yeah, I mean definitely at an early age was uh, you know, got a computer and just was kind of on it all the time, especially once we figured out that, you know, the modem thing and you could hook it up to the Internet and sure, you know, chat rooms and all that stuff. So there was an entire world in there that before you realized it, who would know and then all of a sudden, oh my God, look what's in here and everything. Yeah, I mean I was always attracted to just programming because there's, it was just really cool that you could basically make computers do whatever you wanted them to do, you know, solve problems or just the fun stuff.

Speaker 2: I remember one of the first programs I wrote was essentially had the computer play Beethoven, um, while drawing sort of like circles on the screen in rhythm. Yeah. Just to sort of. Fantastic. I want that program now that it's in basic, so I don't know if, uh, you could have a computer that can run at any more. Fair enough. But conceptually we dig it. What it is this built in, is that from your parents? What kinds of brains do your parents have? What did they do? A. So my dad worked for General Electric and then my mom works for, for a grocery store company called stop and shop on the east coast. Stop a job is huge. Yeah, I'd say more familiar by my grandfather. Definitely. Um, you know, got me sort of into computers. He was the one that bought me my first radio shack, Tandy computer.

Speaker 2: Um, so I think that was where it came from. Whiskey. The computer is the size of a room, computer kind of guy or. No, he wasn't. He was, you know, because I think that was a little bit before, even after his time right now. He was in the navy and um, yeah, just, it's kind of into like electronics more and how computers are sort of a natural flow from more of electronics. Those navy guys, they're not too loud about it, but that's a thing, you know, and what did I just spoke to? Who did I speak to? But they're like, you know, the uh, uh, the marines, they do good marketing, you know, Armenia obviously does good marketing. We in the navy, you don't do such good market and you know, I was actually in the air force. Were you really? So this is, I was not expecting this at all, but there it is.

Speaker 2: It is amazing how many folks in the cannabis industry at a very high level have served our country. Thank you for your service. Yeah. When were you in? Uh, so I was in 2011 to 2005. So I was actually in college, I was in rotc. We called Razzi yet Razzi. And actually, you know, that's part of the reason why I really never experiment with cannabis before this job was because, you know, when you're in the military, you're, you're sort of tested randomly, so just not really a thing that the wise to do, especially as an officer. Um, you know, then when you get out, you're already an adult and it just wasn't, you know, wasn't really that, uh, something that I was interested in. But this, this as far as what you were interested in this Razzi thing. Okay, fine. Now I'm in good shape and that's fantastic.

Speaker 2: And that's helpful. But when did you say to yourself, I'm gonna [inaudible]. The razzi thing is almost like an rotc thing is almost like a, this is the thing that I do on the side. When did it turn into, I'm actually going to do this? Well, for me from the beginning since I was on scholarship, so, you know, when I, when I went into college, the, the deal was you could, you know, they basically pay for your school when you would do eight years in the inactive reserve. Got It. But uh, the year I graduated, 2000, one was an interesting year, surely to be monetary and yeah, they changed the rule. They said everyone's going active duty. Um, so yeah, I never really planned to go active duty, but um, you know, it was, it was, it was happy to do it. And yeah, I spent four years active duty, um, out of college.

Speaker 2: Where did you go, Jim? Uh, so I was stationed in actually in a base in New Mexico where the fun 17 stealth fighter was. Sure, yeah, that was deployed a Middle East, most spent most of my time in Kuwait, Kuwait. So this was like right before the, uh, the o three kind of push north. Got It. Um, so yeah, it was, I was at a base in Kuwait. I did mostly communications, computer radio radar stuff. What was Kuwait like in 2002 ish was just set the scene for us when we sort of, we first got there when my, you know, my, we're a, we're combat comp communications. We would basically go in and start setting up the base. Um, we got there, there was maybe 500 people in the base by the time I left right before the big surge, either just thousands and thousands. I mean, it was just really big infrastructure for that, you know, huge really gives an air force base, but it was sort of a staging area for marines, army, really everyone kind of amassing on the border to push, to push towards that was about a two year of buildup to get all those things in place.

Speaker 2: So outside for us outside that were kind of, you know, part of this as society. Uh, it seemed as though it was going to be inevitable for a long time and it was just

Speaker 3: a matter of, you know, when we, when we do it, we'll do it. Um, I think that, not everybody saw it that way, but that was my sense personally. Uh, was it your sense that the surge would happen in that this definitely you were there to build this out or did that kind of occurred to you along the way? Yeah, I mean I think if, you know, if it's to go back to it in that mindset, you know, right after obviously nine slash 11, um, you know, everyone in the military definitely had a very clear sense of purpose, you know, and obviously in hindsight we know a lot more information now about what was going on or what wasn't going on, but no, certainly at the time I think everyone kind of believed what, you know, what people were saying and we were all very ready to, uh, to move, move forward there.

Speaker 3: Uh, as far as air force, what is the, the key principle that you took away from not only just that buildup but, but conceptually, you know, uh, I think a lot of it is just um, you know, around taking a lot of how the, you learn sort of like management. I'm in a military organization and bringing that into the business world. I mean obviously very different in the military. If I, if I tell someone who works for me to do something, they legally have to do what I say, or they could go to jail and they just do it. Yeah. Um, you know, at the, in the, in the, in the business world, it's a little bit different, but I think a lot of the same principles apply. Um, you know, things like, probably one of the biggest one is just lead by example. Um, you know, just being the type of leader where if you're expecting people to do something, you better be out there in the front to do it.

Speaker 3: Um, you know, another, another similar one is that's related to that. It's more like servant leadership, right? Where as a leader, you know, really what you're doing is serving the people under us in particular as an officer, you know, mostly especially where I was a lieutenant captain. You don't do much, you know, you're sort of at the bottom rung of the officer corps, but um, you know, you, you sort of have a lot of responsibility, especially as a 21, 22 year old where, you know, these people in the military who have been there 30, 40 years. I mean, you weren't ranked them. Sure. So it's just, it's really interesting to be able to, um, you know, lead as such a young person, especially when you're leading people that have been doing this much, much longer than you have. So you're, you're, uh, what I'm hearing is if you're trying to lead, do, do the thing that you're asking them to do.

Speaker 3: Yeah. The thing, yeah, you don't want to, we don't want to be leading from the rear. Um, that's a good way to, uh, I see. That's how we get there. Yeah, that's, that's, that brings us back to the navy with the rear admiral, but that's a whole different thing, right? Yeah, exactly. So, uh, we don't have those in the air force. Thanks. Um, so, so you're in Kuwait. We're doing the buildup. When did you, were you a part of the whole thing or when did you kind of come back? Yeah, I actually left right before, um, we basically invaded Iraq. How were you? Lucky enough to do that because I'd been there so long and it's funny the way the, uh, so I, I basically, if you're there more than one year, so on your 366 day you ended up getting like just a lot more pay just the way that things were.

Speaker 3: So they were, they were really adamant about sending people home. I'm on their one year mark. As long as you were home for a couple months, then you could go back. Did you go back? I ended up not going back there. I ended up going to a, to Tampa, Florida, macdill air force base, which is the headquarters for Centcom, which is where they're running the whole. What did you learn there? Tell us about Centcom. Uh, I think the most interesting thing there was just dealing with all the people from different countries. So my job there is I was sort of a liaison officer between all the other countries in the coalition, so you know, when you actually had to, we actually had two operations going on and there was an operation Iraqi Freedom which was in Iraq and in during freedom, which was in Afghanistan and you know, every, every country.

Speaker 3: I think at the time it was like 80 countries that were involved had sent, you know, they would have like one or two people sort of in the, in the headquarters and yeah, a lot of it was just, you know, working with people from all different countries. Everyone had different agendas, some were our allies in Afghanistan but not our allies in Iraq. So depending on what their countries are doing, which information can be shared with those people. So it's really interesting just to see how I'm such a complex operation is run when you're at the headquarters that absolutely Ireland. Let me see here. Okay. You're here so I can tell you that. Yeah, I mean literally everyone had. Everyone had four computers, right? There was the one for the unclassified one for us, classified one for Enduring Freedom class had been one for Iraqi Freedom, classified. You have to keep them all separate.

Speaker 3: Totally understood. And that, uh, could get us into a conversation which would be a very slippery slope as far as computers and classification and all that. So we're going to leave that alone completely as far as you kind of coming to your senses. You got this, uh, uh, you know, you got into college knowing that you would be in the service then it was active duty. Okay, fine. When did it occur to you that you were done in the military? Um, I think after, after my deployment is one of those things where I think when you're, when you're in the military for, at least for me, like deployment was actually much better than being not deployed because you felt like you're just kind of like not doing anything. Right. Um, you know, when I got back, I think part of it was the, you know, the thing that's sort of soured me was definitely the bureaucracy in it.

Speaker 3: Um, I mean it is a massive organization, not just the air force but the, the u military in general, so, you know, you just see a lot of sort of like inefficiencies and you know, the entrepreneur in me, it just really bothered me and I think that's partially why after I left, other than my quick stint at Microsoft because of the acquisition, you know, I've only been at small companies. So you go up to Boston, you get up from Tampa, you go up to Boston, it was a direct from there. Is that basically it? Yeah, I moved back to Boston after. And you, you, uh, you're looking into this messaging stuff and you're like, okay, I'm doing it. And then you find the Yammer guys and you're like, oh no, no, no, I want to be with you guys. So you go to La, right?

Speaker 3: So here's a Boston by way of Kuwait in La and what was day one on the job at Yammer is now a whole different set of people than you've been dealing with at Centcom. Thanks so much. Yeah. And Kuwait for, you know, uh, how easy was it to kind of ease into that to a, I think it was at the time it was a very small team. There was only a four or five employees. Now, you know, yammer really hadn't launched yet fully. So it was just, you know, it was kind of what you read about, it was just everyone was an engineer. We were kind of locked in a dark room with headphones on, just coding. Did you know that you had something, in other words, was there just this undying understanding we have something, this is going to be huge. Yeah, it was.

Speaker 3: Yammer was one of those things. And I think ease, uh, feels very similar where people, you know, people in Silicon Valley and the tech talk about this concept called product market fit. And a lot of people ask, well, what, what does that mean? And I think for people that have seen it, it's one of those things, it's like definitely know it when you see it. Um, you know, it's hard to describe, but yeah, it's sort of a sense of just constant momentum. Yammer had that, I think he definitely has that now, you know, in particular, in the last probably six to eight months, I think eases hit that inflection point as well. But you never really did have it from day one. It was just, we sort of flipped on the switch and it just kept growing and it just never stopped. And so from launch to exit, how long was that?

Speaker 3: Only about three and a half years, which is amazing. Right? I mean, that's crazy. Yeah. So, uh, you know, just describe the first week versus the last week. Um, well again, the first week was just, you know, four or five engineers locked in a dark room, coding all day. And then once we turned the switch on, okay, we got to get going now. And then the last week we have Steve Vollmer standing in front of the company. Um, you know, doing his kind of thing. If you've ever seen Steve Speak, he's a very passionate every time. It's amazing. It's amazing every time. If you don't know what we're talking about, just look up Steve Balmer on Youtube. It doesn't matter what the different developers, developers, developers that, you know, that was sort of the last day, the of Yammer Independent Day when, uh, when Microsoft close the acquisition. So yeah, it was just, it was really interesting to see it full circle from, you know, four or five guys in a room to a 500 person company getting acquired by Microsoft for over a billion dollars, you know, Steve Ballmer kind of standing there, um, you know, just kind of took to rally the troops.

Speaker 3: Sure. And Jim's like, okay, Steve, I'll be here for a year and then I'm out. I'm, well, how it sounds like, you know, you didn't say this out loud and you might not be saying this, but from college to the military to Yammer to even now, uh, to, to your other startup, which we'll talk about that one year at Microsoft was the toughest, is that fair? No, definitely wasn't the toughest. Um, you know, in some sense it was, it was easier. The pace at which Microsoft moves is substantially slower than what a startup moves. Um, you know, so that can be frustrating. So you'll, you'll literally, and you know, this sounds like a euphemism, but you will literally have meetings about meetings, you know, there'll be prep meetings for other meetings and then, you know, they're the people that are going into to meet Bill Gates. He has a quarterly review.

Speaker 3: There's like literally 30 meetings to prep everyone for that meeting. And again, you said you've missed, you're not being hyperbolic this naturally. No. Yeah, yeah. So a lot of it's just for, for entrepreneurial type people can definitely get frustrating, you know, and we'll literally be in product meetings and there's lawyers in the room telling us things we can and can't do and it's just so, you know, it wasn't hard. It was just, you know, you see kind of, I call it like the belly of the beast, you know, having been in enterprise software for, for so long, like Microsoft is always there no matter what you do in software and Microsoft's always competing with you because they do so much. Um, you know, just to see inside the org is very eyeopening. Right? In one extent you see sort of like the massive size of it.

Speaker 3: I mean when you go up to the Redmond campus, I mean it is literally a city right there, everything you could ever want in a campus. There's thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of people who work there, but then once you're there you kind of see that um, you know, the just people and an organization and they have a lot of, you know, even for their size and their power, they have a lot of issues around just communication. It's, you know, I often wondered on the outside, it's like, well, how sometimes their products are so bad. I'm like, don't they know, um, and you realize like they do know, but the problem is like, you know, the person in charge of that button and the person in charge of that button or like in separate buildings and actually don't like each other because they're competing to the same, to be the same like corporate vice president plus lawyers are in between them on both ends.

Speaker 3: What do you think it was that Microsoft saw in Yammer that they said, okay, we're going to spend this much money? Uh, it was mostly because we were stealing business from, from sharepoint, which was at the time it's sharepoint is a sense kind of faded away, but at the time and very important business for them. Um, and you know, once, once they start losing business they wake up and you and I had this conversation with the woman who actually led the acquisition from the inside, you know, and she said, she goes, look, we're Microsoft, we basically let all you start at people fight it out and then we just like sit back and we'll just buy the winter by the biggest one. And I was like, all right, well it sounds like a good strategy by the winter. All right, so the winter was bought, you were part of that.

Speaker 3: Congratulations. That's the exit that everyone in this town is going forward. Um, and then you start up, what was the name of the company? So it's called co Tab. Okay. And what is the tap was a enterprise mobile messaging apps. So if you think of Yammer as sorta was like the facebook for, uh, for enterprises, this is more like a whatsapp for enterprises. So it was very focused around a text messaging video, calling a voice calling all over voip. So yeah, our target customers, they were more on field service. So having left Gammer, one of the things that, you know, one of the things I really liked about Yammer, enterprise mobility, yeah, was that it was very targeted towards knowledge workers, right? So people like us, people who sit at desks all day, but um, you know, something that really didn't work for was for more of a blue collar.

Speaker 3: So think like people who work in hotels, restaurants, a guy fixing my field service, yes. Or field technicians. So, you know, the target was to build, um, you know, a similar thing, but for them and for those people, they don't, they don't actually even have computers or laptops that their phone is sort of their primary computer. So that was a lot of it. Or the idea around there was to um, build more of a communications apps targeted at more blue collar workers. And it sounds like it makes sense. How did that do? Oh, it's still going. So, uh, I, so part of it was I started and I was there for, for two years and you know, a lot of it was our, our customers, because of the blue color tended to be much larger company. So, you know, companies like Marriott, m and g, so ended up bringing in another CEO who just had a lot more experience.

Speaker 3: I'm selling the larger companies. That makes sense. Um, and yeah, so when, when I did that, I ended up saying I'm still on the board there. I'm an advisor and then yeah, as soon as a word hit the street that I was stepping down, Keith Mccarthy who's the founder of eas, immediately reached out to me. Um, so yeah, then we had dinner and he kind of told me what he was up to. And again, I was an investor in east, so I was, I was getting investor updates emails, but I wasn't getting sort of the, the, the actual low level numbers. And you, this was before we turned on the microphones, you said? Yeah, sure, I'll be an investor. So talk about the first, uh, you know, a conversation that you had with Keith when he was like, this is what I'm going to do. Yeah. And, and how you.

Speaker 3: Yes, we can. But we both ended up leaving Microsoft at around the same time on that one year mark. Um, and, you know, I was, so my co founder of Kotex, Zack Parker also worked at Yammer, so him and I, we're kind of noodling on this a code type thing and then Keith was looking at ease and yeah, he, he, he told me what we was doing and my reaction was like, that sounds interesting. It's kind of crazy. Uh, you might go to jail but haven't you invest? So I ended up being one of the, you know, an early investor in east, um, and yeah, I mean let's just enough money to be significant but not so much that you're going to lose it. Yeah. And you know, it takes two keys, credit, you know, he entered the market and in a much more nebulous time street, you know, almost three years ago at this point to completely new dispensary's back then were getting rated pretty regularly.

Speaker 3: Still are. But I'm very regularly. That's the point. Indeed. So I think, you know, back then just there was a lot more risk, but you know, I think he saw the saw the opportunity in a way that even I just, the risk for me was just too high. We talked to him about that, but you said, okay fine, here's some money and hey, if it works out, why not? Right. So then now flash forward to this next phone call. He's like, Hey, I noticed that you might have some extra time. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, we were talking and I actually wanted to take quite a bit of time off. Um, and then, you know, immediately keith a message may we met up and yeah, I think for me being, being a product person and an entrepreneur, I looked at ease and I saw a couple of things I saw.

Speaker 3: One, clearly just at a macro level, uh, all the trends were very clearly going in the direction of, you know, this is going to happen and you can see it accelerating. Um, I think actually at the time was right around the time that the marriage equality stuff happened and a lot of the, a lot of cannabis felt like that just kind of three or four years behind. So I think that was one thing. You can very clearly see the trans, there's just even a very conservative states medical marijuana was passing. Um, I think overall public opinion had finally gone above, above 50 percent in favor of. Yep. So there was that. And then, yeah, I think in terms of the business, um, you know, I looked at the numbers that, that ease was doing, you know, and then I looked at a lot of the friction points being being medical right now.

Speaker 3: Um, you know, as we, as California and other states transition to recreational, you know, there's a big, it's very difficult actually to, to kind of get started cannabis because you know, you have to talk to a doctor and just for a lot of people, even if they have, you know, if it's a medical condition but not a debilitating one, a lot of times they just don't bother or their use alternatives like alcohol or other prescription drugs. So, you know, I, I could see the trend of even that, those barriers going away. Um, you know, when I joined rec recreational wasn't on the ballot yet in California, but it's very clear that it was coming. So when did you join? Let's just make sure. April, April 2016.

Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah, it wasn't on the ballot yet, but it was pretty much on its way. Yeah, absolutely. You can go back into this very podcast and kind of hear the, the trajectory was definitely there. But April 2016, you come in day one, you know, you could see the numbers when you sat down for dinner that you had. Where'd you go?

Speaker 3: The battery? Okay, and how was that good. Do you remember what you ordered? Um, I usually get the burger with red wine or was it a beer? Probably had some manhattans that.

Speaker 2: Oh, interesting. Oh, okay. So we're all in type of thing on the, on that aspect. Okay. Great Burger in Manhattan, you can't beat it. Um, so you know, you hear the numbers, you see the numbers. Okay, fine. I can see the trajectory of the general industry. Great. It sounds like there may be, is going to be some legislation then you walk into these, uh, these folks out here because we're in your headquarters. Thanks for having me. And Day one. What did you notice?

Speaker 3: Well, one was just because I knew the sort of caliber of the team, like I knew people like, um, you know, some people who worked here like Noah and industry and other people, but a lot of it was just like, just, you know, how much of it just a tech company, it was, I need to look like it looks like every other tech. Have you walked in here, you would not know that it's a cannabis company at all. So I think that was one is just like, all right, you know, getting over that sort of like, you know, is this gonna be just people kind of like smoking around the office, you know, definitely not the case. So I think the other one was just, just again, how much potential when I joined the company only had I think three or four engineers, you know, and Keith and I were very line that the ease is a tech company.

Speaker 3: Um, all our, all our future in longterm value will be in the technology that we build. Sure. Um, you know, very similar to like, you think like Uber and Airbnb were there, you know, in transportation or hospitality, but at heart they're tech companies. So yeah, for me it was definitely the immediate opportunity to um, essentially beef up the, the engineering and the product team, you know. And then in terms of the product itself, I think ease as originally built was somewhat bare bones. It was very targeted at people who were in the existing market, maybe already going to dispense reason wouldn't want a home delivery. And I think the other opportunity of both Keith and I talked about was it was very clear that, you know, as, as sort of things opened up as, as attitudes change in particular as recreational co came, the type of people that would be open to canvas would change and specifically they're not going to have a lot of background information.

Speaker 3: Um, you know, and even for me, when I joined this company, I didn't even know the difference between and Sativa you do now. Yeah. So, you know, I think for me it was immediate that it was like, all right, we need to make like user education a big part of what we do and having a product background. I understand that know user education is really hard because people actually don't want to learn. No, they don't want to read. Right. So tell me what to do. Yeah. The way people kind of learn is through a, essentially through patterns or um, you know, uh, for example, like things like design. So, you know, for example, instead of a trend, I really write paragraphs and paragraphs about the difference between indeck and Sativa, which ultimately no one will use. We've used little patterns like we use blue and like moon icons for Endeca just to, you know, I know that India is not necessarily nighttime, um, but it just sort of conveys the, that and you know, and [inaudible] or we use yellow with like sons and hybrids are more green with a, with a balance of Yin and the Yang.

Speaker 3: So yeah, it was, it was just coming up with all of these sorts of things. And what I like about it is because cannabis was new in terms of like this type of education, not a lot of people were doing this, most cannabis products were differentiated either on potency or strain. Um, and you know, for the mass market, I think those are both the incorrect things too short we differentiate on. So yeah, a lot of it was just looked as the streaming mean to me if I have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah. So a lot of it was just an opportunity. I think to, for me at least, at least more product that has just set industry standards. Um, you know, when you think of building companies, again in building value, um, the companies that set the standards in the long run are definitely the ones that went, even if those standards on proprietary.

Speaker 3: We're not saying we're the only ones that are going to be using these colors. Sure. We actually want the industry to start to standardize around a lot of these, the three point seat belt from Volvo, if you will. So here's the seatbelt. It's way safer and now everyone can have it. Please do use it. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think, you know, part of being in the industry here, um, again, it's very unique and in enterprise software sort of everyone's, everyone's your enemy, right? Because it's a very ciro, zero sum situation. The industries established, all you're doing is trying to take market share from the other guys in cannabis. It's, it's, we can actually, there's enough market for everybody right now because the whole market is growing so rapidly, so actually think there's more opportunity to cooperate. Um, you know, it's, it's a very sort of like us versus them mentality. Um, whereas we're, yeah, we're where it's us as the cannabis industry then I send them is, you know, the everyone specifically the federal government and so, you know, I think there's some more opportunity for everyone to, to sort of play together, um, for the, for the mutual benefit and then, you know, in five or 10 years when it's more established, then we'll all hardcore compete with each other, fight it out. So you just

Speaker 2: kind of brought us through the big picture things that you worked on a over this one year that you've been here. Uh, because it's, I don't think it's even a full year now. Um, you know, as we sit here in February of 2017, but cannabis years or dog years. You've heard that phrase right now? I haven't. Oh, well there you go. So congratulations on your upcoming seventh anniversary in cannabis, which is kind of what it feels like based on the, you know, all of the different big picture things that you're talking about and where we are as an industry in that. Yay, it's federally illegal still. So going back to your folks when you talk to them or when you did talk to them about getting in and when you talk to them now they're on the east coast. It's a different whole different mindset, which we've talked about here before on the podcast.

Speaker 2: What do they understand as to what you're doing? Um, I was actually blown away at how open they were. I thought it was gonna be a harder conversation than it was actually. My Dad was diagnosed with cancer this year, so yeah, and he just found out he's in remission, but I'm very happy to hear that. Thank you. And you know, I went home during Thanksgiving and actually brought a bunch of, just different things for him to try some CBD gummies and some sprays, you know, and I think he said it helped a little particular appetite. Um, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't the, the, the therapy wasn't that debilitating on him, but I think the chemotherapy, so it wasn't nausea or whatever. Most of the loss of appetite. Um, so I think it helped a little bit there, especially around Thanksgiving, you know, he had some and then uh, he definitely had an extra Turkey.

Speaker 2: Excellent. Uh, on the day. So yeah, I think, you know, they were much more open to and it also meant, you know, Massachusetts where they live a legalized as well. Um, and it's very clear everyone there. I mean my brother is actually a state police officer in Massachusetts out of here. Alright. And then my other brother's a fireman in a, in Boston. So I guess you're an air force guy so that military family. Um, so yeah, so even, you know, even my brother being a cop, like everyone, it's what does your brother say? They're all fine with it. He actually, he's excited because they just there from a police perspective, they're just sick of dealing with this low level stuff. Well that's, I mean, are you surprised because I'm not surprised having spoken to law enforcement people, uh, that a high level, they're like the cannabis, like we just don't need to be dealing with this and that.

Speaker 2: That's your brother's perspective as well. It sounds like. I think, you know, I'm obviously not as, this is not the official position constitutes a state police, but you know, they kind of view it as a waste of time. Yeah. Why are we doing this? What the. All right. So, uh, as this past year has been your kind of information out, you know, hey, let's, let's explain things to patients in a way that they can understand what we're talking about with as few words as possible. Um, you now have this new report that I just saw a because Sheena who's great, sent it to me. Um, and it basically just says what we all know in the industry, which is that everybody, cannabis for everybody and everybody uses cannabis essentially. So tell me what I mean.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I think it is one of those things where in you're in the industry, you're just, you're shocked at how just when you talk to baby boomers, um, I was actually at a political fundraising dinner last night and for whom that kidding mentioned. But uh, yeah, I mean, I think one of the things they were talking about is that, and this is a state senator and he was visiting an old age home and he's like, all the people there want to talk about is cannabis. Yup.

Speaker 2: So the state said that's that. So even there they understand it. Right? And so where is this bridge, you know, in other words, are we all connected now? And it literally is just the federal government that you kind of mentioned that his last here. Um, because as far as the elected officials that we've spoken to, they get it and even the know their colleagues in the Senate, in the, in the house, and you know, at the federal level, they understand that we need to be doing something here.

Speaker 3: Yeah. To me this is, this is very simple. And, and uh, and why I think it's inevitable is because it's, it's just education. So cannabis is one of those things where it's very clear that everyone has a very strong opinion and almost no one knows anything about it at all. There you go. That's true of almost everything. But I digress, but I think this in particular, and I think what, what people, what I found is just universally, once people learn just a little bit, they don't have to become experts on it once they learn a little bit. Um, and then I think, and I think that that changes minds and I think the other thing that's becoming very universal and again, it's sort of like this fly wheel that's happening as, as attitudes are changing, more people are becoming opening it, open to it, people are using it for different medical conditions.

Speaker 3: It's helping them and they're advocating for it in their and their social circles with friends and family. So almost everyone I talked to now has a personal story, whether it's a close family member or a family friend, um, who had some illness where cannabis helped. And I think that immediately changes mindsets. And when you say social circles, you mean actual people talking to each other versus just friends and family and. Exactly. Because you know, one of the things that we know is that the kind of biggest growth curve and cannabis is with baby boomers, right? Is that a, that can't be surprising to you? How can we kind of share that information better with folks that don't know that? Yeah, I think it's just, it's just talking about, it's like our data report. I think, you know, with baby boomers. Yeah, it's very clear. If you think about like all of the positive benefits of cannabis, you know, it's, it certainly makes sense that as you age, those benefits have become more important to you.

Speaker 3: Right. You know, not, not just medical conditions, but you know, insomnia, stress, um, you know, all of these other things that, that I think for as you, again, as you age, you become an important idea. The problem is I think for, for baby boomers and even people of my generation, look, just, you know, I'm guessing. Yeah. Gen X, um, you know, I do, I know we talked about the eighties and nineties, I, all those drug commercials, right? This is your brain on drugs. Um, yeah. I mean we had the dare program and my in elementary school, so I think a lot of it is just these very deeply ingrained thing. So even though a lot of people would do it, they don't, they don't really get, feel comfortable even talking about it. But, you know, I think that that again is more and more challenging.

Speaker 3: And once you find, you know, once you find sort of likeminded people, then it's like, Oh yeah, I've actually it so many people that you wouldn't have gas. And they're like, Oh yeah, I've actually been using it for like decades. I just didn't talk about it because why would I like George Zimmer from the men's wearhouse and whatever. All right, so, so again, we're February 2017. As you look at ease and as you've seen what you've done for the past 12 months, you put out the data report, Hey, here's what actually is happening in cannabis as we go into 2017 here, what should we be expecting from you? What are you expecting for me? Um, well I think a big shift is in the industry is the sort of rise of brands. You know, I think even even a year ago and in particular before that most cannabis was flour and most was differentiated on strain, right.

Speaker 3: There really wasn't like a sort of, quote unquote brand behind it. We know what we're seeing now is the rise of, um, you know, much more manufactured products, so, you know, specifically vaporizer cartridges, edibles and all kinds of form factors, you know, I think those are sort of the classic categories. I think this year we're going to start to see. I'm just new form factors. So, um, you know, things like oral sprays, skin sprays, bombs, um, you know, different types of edibles like drinks, um, you know, what a new product we're launching soon as it's sort of like a thing of is like a five hour energy. But with, uh, with tfc ease branded, no. Oh, okay. Now you say we're launching, how does that work with launching means? Um, you know, we, we basically work, so we work directly with some product manufacturer. So in this case it's a, it's a company called Dixie elixirs.

Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, of course. Trip. Just add them on. Okay. Yep. So dixie dough, it's one of their product new products called lifted, which again, it's sort of a, it's not the big drink, it's more of a shot. Um, so yeah, so actually we have a common investor with Dixie. I'm so they sort of facilitated a Dixie, you know, hasn't really launched fully yet in uh, in California. So yeah, they're, they're interested in terms of launching. They would be interested in hearing you say that, but that's a whole different conversation. But yeah, I mean this is, this is definitely us sort of working with brands and then the dispensary's that we work with, get them on board essentially to carry, to carry those products. So what is, this is a great point to, to actually talk about how it works now, right? Because, uh, I think it evolved a little bit from where it was.

Speaker 3: So, you know, when I, you know, download ease, what exactly am I getting as a, as a consumer, let's just do that. Yeah. So, um, so, so the first thing is whether you know, whether you already have a medical marijuana recommendation. So if you don't, um, what we do is we actually can connect you with a via video chat, a doctor, so, um, we partner with some doctors down, it's a doctor's group down in southern California, so they use our emd platform, um, which again, as a technology layer that basically connects the patient to the doctor via video chat and you, so you can basically get your medical marijuana recommendation right from your screen and about five or 10 minutes. Perfect check. I've got my recommended. Yep. And then then they actually issued you an electronic one, so we mail you a hard copy or the doctor's mail you a hard copy.

Speaker 3: Um, and then electronic one is creating an ease. Then you're basically kicked right over to what we call our menu, right? And that's sort of like the browsable menu. There's all different types of products. And then really from there, as long as you are in a, uh, an area that we service. So like 100 cities in California right now, you basically just add what you want to your cart, click the checkout button and then a, someone will have it to your door and about 20 minutes. Fantastic. And am I going to harbor side? Am I going to Magnolia? Am I going what you have? What's my interface is as a user? Uh, so your interfaces, users the ease menu. Um, so, you know, our model is definitely a little different where we, so we do work with a compliant dispensaries and every region, so, you know, if you place an order in San Francisco or you place an order in San Diego, you're, you're the underlying dispensary that you're getting it from is different.

Speaker 3: But because of the way I'm sort of ease, we want to, we want a more of a curated menu. The product selection one will be, uh, basically the same in both regions. Um, and two is that, you know, even though you're ordering it from a dispensary, it's a under an underlying dispensary, it's not as clear. So a lot of the dispensary to work with actually, or they don't have a storefront. So for example, in San Diego they do have a storefront. It's a, they called Torrey holistics. Um, so they have, they have a retail storefront and then they also deliver for ease out of that dispensary. But in other places, um, where you're allowed to have non storefront dispensary licenses, which is sort of a new license category. Next prop 64. Yeah. They actually don't have, they don't have retail, their delivery only. So we're seeing more and more, not just with ease but with other services as well of these sort of delivery only dispensary.

Speaker 3: So they're still technically dispensary's. You just can't walk into them there. You have to order, um, either through us or another platform. Got It. But I can, if I'm a physician, I can obviously have a relationship with these. Obviously if I'm a patient, I cannot have a relationship with these. Sounds like if I'm a dispatcher egg and have a relationship with these, if I'm a manufacturer, I can have a relationship with these. What about the farmers? Uh, can I have a relationship with these as well as motivators? Not yet. Um, you know, it's definitely. So right now the cultivators have the relationship with the, with the manufacturers mostly. Um, we are, we are talking to a couple distributors around, um, yeah, essentially doing more branded flower. So if you, if we think of sort of like our progress in terms of all these brands, mostly now all the vaporizers, um, all of the edibles are fully branded. We're actually getting very close to having even the concentrates. So think like the shatter and the Hash and the wax of those will be branded as well. Flowers, the sort of the last frontier in branding. So we're looking, we're working now with a, with a couple, um, really distributors because there really isn't yet a, a single cultivation that could probably handle the scale that we're talking about. So the distributor sort of aggregate together a bunch. Um, so we're going to start experimenting with, you know, more packaged branded flower,

Speaker 2: um, as well, which is exactly which speaks right into prop 64 and kind of all the different licenses and all the different new setups that we're about to experience. So a fascinating. Yeah. As far as this old red sox fan who's an air force guy who's really a tech guy who now finds himself being an advocate and an even an activist in cannabis, what's your mindset as we get into 2017 here? Are you, are you surprised that you and I are sitting here talking on a show that's called cannabis economy?

Speaker 3: I mean, sometimes yes, sometimes I'm like, wow. Like I never, I never would have thought I would be in this industry, but at the other time is now, I mean, when you think about, you know, what I enjoy doing, it makes total sense, right? So one, a, I just, as an entrepreneur, I just love building great companies. Um, and you know, being in an industry that is really nascent, a gives you a really in many ways at once in a generation opportunity, right. When I think about, you know, what I consider this sort of like the great American companies, right? So, you know, I think of like, you know, Microsoft or even like things like standard oil or budweiser, you know, a lot of those and almost all of them actually were companies built at the beginning of an industry. It's much harder to come in, in a mature industry and build a great company, you know, in great. I mean, you know, a company that will last 50 years. There will be a household name, like when you think of that company, you think of that industry, Xerox. Yeah. Anyway, I think that, that, that doesn't exist yet, obviously for cannabis, it's very new and I think there's a, there's a couple of people that are jockeying for that position. Um, but yeah, that to me is the exciting part. It's really, it's the ability to create a lasting company.

Speaker 2: I'm around this as well. I'm excited. I'm excited for it. It's time for the three final questions. I'll tell you what they are and then I'll ask you them in order. The first is what has most surprised you in cannabis? The second is what has most surprised you in life and on the soundtrack of your life? Jim? The third question is, what is one song, one track that must be on there? But first things first, what has most surprised you in cannabis might have already kind of mentioned?

Speaker 3: Um, I mean, I think from, from having zero, from having sort of like zero knowledge about cannabis, I think, I think a lot of it was, yeah, just around the sort of breath of different things coming in. You know, in my mind, cannabis was flower, right? It was just like, you know, you either use a bong or a pipe or roll it up. Um, so coming in and just seeing, you know, the wide variety of ways that people can consume, you know, obviously it was, I was aware of edibles, but just, you know, how precise you can get around dosing and effect. You know, what I think about, uh, other, other similar products. Right? So, you know, I, I do, you know, canvas is obviously a drug. I would put it in the same category as things like caffeine, alcohol, um, you know, when you think about like my morning coffee or a drink after work, you know, when you drink it, you get, you know, you sort of feel a little drunk and that, you know, that doesn't differ whether I have Ketel one or whether I have Stoli sure.

Speaker 3: Right. But what was really interesting about cannabis is because of the underlying genetics and I think the way that the, when you learn about their sort of like, um, you know, your body reacts to it, you can get very specific around different effects, um, you know, not just on the medical side but also is there is a recreational drug as well. So I think that was just the most surprising. Again, I knew nothing about any of that and you know, I think it's one of those things where as people start to find out about it, um, and you know, I always wondered like why are people so into this thing? Just like I never got it. I was like, why? Why is this like, you know, people don't, you don't see like people making their identity around alcohol think those are called alcoholics and different things, but you know, it was, it was very clear that like cannabis had just such, like a, there was a lot of passion around it. So it was just saying I was, I didn't understand it being in the outside. It made no sense to me. Now I sort of get it. It is, it is very unique.

Speaker 2: I didn't grow up with a dog and I never understood dog people until I dated a girl with a dog and now I understand the dog thing. Yeah. Yeah. I grew up with dogs similar to what you're talking about. What is most of you grew up with dogs. That's fantastic. Yeah. This might be a part of your answer. What has most surprised you in life on life? The biggest question? Um, it might, it might need a second to think about that one. You should, I mean, you're considering your life's lessons, so I appreciate your deliberation. Yeah. Where you're being deliberate. I'm trying to type up something big. Um,

Speaker 3: I think, I think when I think about just because I've, I've spent a lot of my, my post college life, um, you know, very focused on career and working and you know, I think the thing that constantly surprises me, maybe it's not the, you know, I wouldn't say like the most surprising, but it's, it's always there and every time I think I have it figured out, um, something else happens. It's definitely around people, right. I think ultimately like people surprise you, you know, not because I think when you're younger, at least for me, like I always thought like, well, it just, everyone thinks the way I think so. Sure. What made sense for me. So I never really understood like why are these people acting this way? Everybody gets it. Right. And I think as you, as you sort of age and mature, you definitely get more of an appreciation for what motivates other people, you know, even running a business. Even something like ease, right? Everyone here has a different motivation for being here, for, for some people it's financial. For some people it's creative and for other people, yeah, they have a passion around the industry, whether it's personally or because you know, they, they do feel like this is a thing that helps people and they want to make it more widely available. So, you know, I think as I've matured, you know, just being more minded about

Speaker 2: how all different people have different motivations is something that's surprised me. It's interesting that that's your answer because you kind of spoke to it when you went to Kuwait and he explained it. I kinda had to interact this way. Then I went to Centcom had to interact that way, went out to Yammer or direct that way and it was always finding out what, what is each of these people's motivation. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's, that's definitely know a part of it. Again, it was even from the beginning being being thrown kind of in a situation when you're 21 years old, second lieutenant, you know nothing. And then you know, some chief master sergeant who's been in the air force for 40 years is like saluting you and calling you sir. You know, at the same time he's like, all right, you know, just like, let's just be clear, like who's in charge here kind of thing.

Speaker 2: I'm doing the thing that I'm supposed to do also. I'm in charge. Yeah. That's kind how it, that's how second lieutenants are everywhere. Everyone knows the deal. I love you have a very big smile on your face and you, you almost appreciate that. In other words, you respect the wisdom and he respects the process all of the same time. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, I distinctly remember, um, you know, early, early in my career, it was only a couple of months and I, I think I remember some situation where the new second lieutenant there was in my class, um, you know, did something that was pretty disrespectful to achieve massive sergeant. Uh, I don't think anyone ever saw that second lieutenant again. Um, you know, even though technically outranked the guy that you know, that his career was kind of done. You do, but you don't.

Speaker 2: Yeah, don't be a moron. Basically, you have to understand what's happening. Even if it's not being said, yeah, fair. All right. So, so basically what surprised you most is, uh, the, the spectrum of other people's motivations and, and recognize them, respecting them as a leader. Just, you know, learning how to make sure that your, you know, motivating people in the right way. Yeah. I love it. That's a good leader. You obviously know what you're doing, so that's fantastic. Yeah. Okay. Jim, on the soundtrack of your life. One track, one song that's got to be on there. A soundtrack. Well, one a song I often sort of quote just the title, um, you know, because again, the nature of what I do is uh, yeah, Mo money, Mo problems. Um, my biggie and you know, because I think a lot of that is, you know, especially coming from yammer and then tap a lot of his venture capital has been sort of big part of, you know, what you do here in Silicon Valley.

Speaker 2: So, you know, you're sort of constantly raising money. Um, and I think as an entrepreneur, especially when you've, you've done this and you know, if you kind of add up all of the companies, know, been hundreds of millions of dollars in venture capital that I've been involved in raising and you kind of get this thing as you, you know, you raise money and then all of a sudden everyone's like, oh, congratulations, you've sort of accomplish something. Um, and a lot of times my reply is mo money, Mo problems because, you know, and that's just not just venture capital, but even as a, as a company grows and you get more people, more revenue, more customers,

Speaker 3: it also just makes things a lot harder. Um, so, you know, I think that's a thing to understand and remember is, you know, you can't coast, um, you know, if you think, especially, especially in the early days of industry and an accompany, um, that, you know, it's always, you just remembering it's always going to get harder. And I tried to try to tell that to tell that people here, it's hard and it's gonna get harder and you just have to be ready for it. Um, because yeah, it doesn't end when doing these things, especially in startups, it just never gets easier. Um, wait, so then we can't end that way because we can't end with you saying it never gets easier. And then I say, okay, Great. Thanks. So for the time, Jim, where is the silver lining around what you're talking about? Um, I, I honestly think it just, if you know, if, if our goal here and then definitely my goal, um, you know, with not only with us but just in life is yeah, when I say you know, what I want to do and what really drives me is to build sort of like lasting great companies.

Speaker 3: I think it really has never over, right when I look at people like, um, you know, people like Mark Bezos, Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, I mean those guys are billionaires. They don't need to be doing what they're doing and they're there every day pushing. Um, and I think if they weren't, then those companies would stagnate and fail. And so I think that's just part of it is, you know, always remembering that it's never over. I mean, you know, once you, once you realize it's over, you should just leave, right and go hire somebody else and because you know, there's no coasting, that would be like being down three games to nothing in, you know, let's say an American league championship series and saying, well, there's no way that we can win this series. No one ever has before. Yeah. Or down a 25 points in the superbowl. Yeah. So it's about always the comeback to Boston. Come back, Jim, man, thanks so much again. There you have Jim Patterson.

Speaker 1: Just remarkable how many people even just on this podcast, on this show, how many of the industries leaders have served our country. So I, uh, considered the industry to be lucky to have these people. I consider myself lucky to have you. Thank you so much for listening.

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Cannabis Economy is a real-time history of legal cannabis. We chronicle how personal and industry histories have combined to provide our current reality.