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Ep.299: Jmichaele Keller Part II

Cannabis Economy Podcast
Ep.299: Jmichaele Keller Part II

Ep.299: Jmichaele Keller Part II

Jmichaele Keller returns to discuss domestic and global cannabis testing. He notes that each Country and US State alike is crafting unique and custom regulations from a scientific basis. Some localities have a level of expertise, some don’t and eventually as Jmichaele sees it, cannabis is going to be legal across the board and when that happens, the real rules will be presented. He feels that it’s important to write the global regulations now. If we don’t, all of these specific rulesets regarding pesticides, yeast and mold, medical vs. adult use, etc. will find operators on a number of completely different pages and then the industry will find itself in a state of upheaval.

Transcript:

Speaker 3: JMichaele Keller returns. JMichaele Keller returns to discuss domestic and global cannabis testing notes in each country and us data like is crafting unique and custom regulations from a scientific basis. Some localities have a level of expertise, some don't, and eventually as Jamie Michelle sees it, cannabis is going to be illegal across the board and when that happens, the real rules will be presented. It feels that it's important to write those global regulations. Now, if we don't all have these specific rule sets regarding pesticides, yeast, and mold, medical versus don't use, etc. To find operators on a number of completely different pages and then the industry will find itself in a state of upheaval. Welcome To cannabis economy. I'm your host seth adler. Check us out on social with the hand can economy. That's two ends of the word economy. Gem shall keller, welcome back. Thank you.

Speaker 1: We had a good conversation about life, about consciousness. We touched on steep hill. Not enough. I mean really right now. No, we should talk about that more. We should probably talk about the pill since that's what we were supposed to talk about and it turned into this other path, but that's okay. That's your, that's your day job is how I'll put it. Is that how you see it? my day job, I think it's my, like 24 hour jobs bill right now. Is there a uh, is leadership a 24 hour experience? Is that what you would say? Whereas cannabis at 24 hour experience or resolve but leadership is definitely a 24 hour experience because I like dreams. See pill at this point in time. So it's happening while I'm sleeping also. That's good. That's good. I guess so because I get more work time then the amount of when you clock in and clock out is, it's never ending because you never clock app.

Speaker 1: So basically I've never clock out. Alright. So what, you know, central tenants of course are a testing, but let's just go ahead and start at the beginning when you know, you kind of went to arcview. Let's pick up where we left off and you know, steve deangelo's kind of a thought to, to kind of bring this to the fore when you joined the team, what was the organization? And let's start from there. Well, like, like, all right, so, um, long long ago, um, I sold my software company, right? Which we talked about. We talked about. Excellent. Okay. And then, uh, like I got bored, I'm in real estate. I'm like, it's too easy. Yep. Right. So I just happened to google cannabis investing, right. And I'm like, oh my god, there's this new thing, right? We're, we're entrepreneurs and investors are coming together just like a real thing, like a real thing, a real thing.

Speaker 1: And like, so I instantly, actually I was, I bought my ticket to fly to alexandra, Virginia before arcview even approved me to join the organization. And I'm like, all right, this is it. We're in, I will be going, I'm going. Um, I called my kids, I call them my kids, but they're really old, right? And they're a part of the, the whole business they have now all joined steep pill and we go right, here we go, right? And we're in the old business now they're in the new business and they're all kind of geeky software, you know, whatever. They all grew up in the software business. That was perfect. So how did you explain this to them? I said, this is it because we were, we had been looking like, all right, as a family, what company do we want to start? Right. And, uh, like this kennis thing's pretty cool, you know, I was like, we're in.

Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah. So I started a family office. And with the intent of investing across the space in cannabis, much easier. A much easier than my current job. Yes. A lot more work. What happened? What did, how did you get wrangled in here? Wow. Not sure if I'm going to share all of that public. That's fair. Okay. How do we have the pleasure of having you served? Well, when I looked at like, so it was that first conference that I went to in dc two years ago, um, and I looked at steep hill and said, wow, this really should be a software, big data automation company that just happens to do lab testing. Right, right. You being a softWare guy as looking at everything from, you know, from a software viewpoint. Right, exactly. Um, and um, and that, you know, if I built that system right, I can scale this globally and I was in, you know, made my first investment on the spot.

Speaker 1: Okay. So then again though, you're the chief executive, I didn't start that way. I started as an investor who said to who, hey, jay, michelle, it'd be great if. Was that you, was that them? Um, um, wow that up. Let's just say that there was a point in time I had put a lot of money up. Then this was through, this was like december of 2015. Got it. And I'd put a lot of money in because I probably can't say that stuff. And a radIo show you don't have to write, not write, can't trust that it's a lot. Yeah. And then I was considering putting in a lot more. Got a lot. Okay. Yes. And at this point of lots of, lots of, in steep hill, I'm like, all right, this starting to get serious, um, if I'm going to put that much money in, I'm running it. Um, and so like my proposal to the board was right, I'll, I'll write you thiS really, really big check, but you know, I need to run this thing. OkAy. And when you said that, you know, and you kind of, your first day on the job, what did we have as steep hill? What was the, you know, the reality. And then now obviously you guys are expanding and expanding and expanding, but will take us through. Take us through some of the maChinations.

Speaker 3: JMichaele Keller returns. JMichaele Keller returns to discuss domestic and global cannabis testing notes in each country and us data like is crafting unique and custom regulations from a scientific basis. Some localities have a level of expertise, some don't, and eventually as Jamie Michelle sees it, cannabis is going to be illegal across the board and when that happens, the real rules will be presented. It feels that it's important to write those global regulations. Now, if we don't all have these specific rule sets regarding pesticides, yeast, and mold, medical versus don't use, etc. To find operators on a number of completely different pages and then the industry will find itself in a state of upheaval. Welcome To cannabis economy. I'm your host seth adler. Check us out on social with the hand can economy. That's two ends of the word economy. Gem shall keller, welcome back. Thank you.

Speaker 1: We had a good conversation about life, about consciousness. We touched on steep hill. Not enough. I mean really right now. No, we should talk about that more. We should probably talk about the pill since that's what we were supposed to talk about and it turned into this other path, but that's okay. That's your, that's your day job is how I'll put it. Is that how you see it? my day job, I think it's my, like 24 hour jobs bill right now. Is there a uh, is leadership a 24 hour experience? Is that what you would say? Whereas cannabis at 24 hour experience or resolve but leadership is definitely a 24 hour experience because I like dreams. See pill at this point in time. So it's happening while I'm sleeping also. That's good. That's good. I guess so because I get more work time then the amount of when you clock in and clock out is, it's never ending because you never clock app.

Speaker 1: So basically I've never clock out. Alright. So what, you know, central tenants of course are a testing, but let's just go ahead and start at the beginning when you know, you kind of went to arcview. Let's pick up where we left off and you know, steve deangelo's kind of a thought to, to kind of bring this to the fore when you joined the team, what was the organization? And let's start from there. Well, like, like, all right, so, um, long long ago, um, I sold my software company, right? Which we talked about. We talked about. Excellent. Okay. And then, uh, like I got bored, I'm in real estate. I'm like, it's too easy. Yep. Right. So I just happened to google cannabis investing, right. And I'm like, oh my god, there's this new thing, right? We're, we're entrepreneurs and investors are coming together just like a real thing, like a real thing, a real thing.

Speaker 1: And like, so I instantly, actually I was, I bought my ticket to fly to alexandra, Virginia before arcview even approved me to join the organization. And I'm like, all right, this is it. We're in, I will be going, I'm going. Um, I called my kids, I call them my kids, but they're really old, right? And they're a part of the, the whole business they have now all joined steep pill and we go right, here we go, right? And we're in the old business now they're in the new business and they're all kind of geeky software, you know, whatever. They all grew up in the software business. That was perfect. So how did you explain this to them? I said, this is it because we were, we had been looking like, all right, as a family, what company do we want to start? Right. And, uh, like this kennis thing's pretty cool, you know, I was like, we're in.

Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah. So I started a family office. And with the intent of investing across the space in cannabis, much easier. A much easier than my current job. Yes. A lot more work. What happened? What did, how did you get wrangled in here? Wow. Not sure if I'm going to share all of that public. That's fair. Okay. How do we have the pleasure of having you served? Well, when I looked at like, so it was that first conference that I went to in dc two years ago, um, and I looked at steep hill and said, wow, this really should be a software, big data automation company that just happens to do lab testing. Right, right. You being a softWare guy as looking at everything from, you know, from a software viewpoint. Right, exactly. Um, and um, and that, you know, if I built that system right, I can scale this globally and I was in, you know, made my first investment on the spot.

Speaker 1: Okay. So then again though, you're the chief executive, I didn't start that way. I started as an investor who said to who, hey, jay, michelle, it'd be great if. Was that you, was that them? Um, um, wow that up. Let's just say that there was a point in time I had put a lot of money up. Then this was through, this was like december of 2015. Got it. And I'd put a lot of money in because I probably can't say that stuff. And a radIo show you don't have to write, not write, can't trust that it's a lot. Yeah. And then I was considering putting in a lot more. Got a lot. Okay. Yes. And at this point of lots of, lots of, in steep hill, I'm like, all right, this starting to get serious, um, if I'm going to put that much money in, I'm running it. Um, and so like my proposal to the board was right, I'll, I'll write you thiS really, really big check, but you know, I need to run this thing. OkAy. And when you said that, you know, and you kind of, your first day on the job, what did we have as steep hill? What was the, you know, the reality. And then now obviously you guys are expanding and expanding and expanding, but will take us through. Take us through some of the maChinations.

Speaker 1: Ha. Wow. Um, from a, from a entrepreneurial, from a business standpoint, like, alright, I need to turn this into a real company as opposed to what, you know, hey, here we are in cannabis, here we are in the cannabis economy. There have been companies that have been in the industry for a long time and trying to do it the right way, right? Or some of those companies are now doing it the right way and it sounds like steep hill was one of those companies were trying to do it the right way and then actually making that still there. You know, in this industry, I think you're seeing a level of professionalism like transition in indeed, you know, two people who know how to do specific tasks, you know, and they might be, you know, a marketing person, they may be a pr person, they dip a cfo or, or the multitude of expertise that you need to run any company.

Speaker 1: In reality, cannabis is no different than any other business. It has certain fundamentals. I mean, you need to have, you need to hire people, you need to have payroll, you need to file your tax returns, you need to market, you need to la, la, la, la, la, right? All those normal things. RighT. And because this industry was underground for so long, I'm, none of those functions existed. Um, and people just did whatever they needed to do. And also like you'd never could do that because you had to keep everything secret. Yeah. well that's even further back in the kind of gray market of do I even know? What do I report? should I report? What do I do? You know? Do I even tell my parents and family that I'm in this whatever, which why I told my mother yes. And she was actually fairly supportive.

Speaker 1: I was like, oh, great. She's pro medical cannabis. There we go. She's 86 years old, so. Well then she would like to get her on medical cannabis. yeah, because like she doesn't sleep right? Well, she sleeps in her chair like throughout the day, but doesn't sleep at night. I just want to Give her, you know, some great medical cannabiS so she'll sleep and not have the tv on all night long when I'm visiting and trying to do. I'm trying to sleep liKe a normal human being. Got it. So yeah. And if I can convert her to medical cannabis, then that will be life. Life will be great. Right? If there's one person, it's hers now. Yeah. Well, I'm a, I'm a medical patient. I'm a cbd patient. Right. Um, and it has changed my life. Now. I want to take that tangent, but I'm not going to do it yet.

Speaker 1: Awesome. because there's a whole thread. Yes. Because I want to make sure that we kind of hit our points here from a steep hill perspective. WhaT's important? What are we doing? What needs to be done? Wow. That's. Can you focus that question? Can you be a little more granular regulators? Let's talk about regulations across the, you know, this is a message that I'm, you know, that I've been pitching for a year, um, and that all of the states are going around crafting their own regulations from a scientific basis. Right. Um, and some states have a level of expertise, some do not. Right? But they're all doing their oWn thing. All right. And eventually kennedy's is going to be legal federally legal in the United States. Okay. And the fda is going to say, yeah, that's all nice, but here's the way that we're going to be doing it.

Speaker 1: Now, here's the real rules, at least from a scientific basis. Sure. Right. Yeah. As they do with food as they do with, as they should do, that's their job. Right? Right. Yeah. Um, so I've been pitching this concept of, right, the federal regulations now for a year. Okay. And we're getting some traction. Okay. How so? Well, I want, I want to do like what the repercussions of that not being the case. Right? So like, you know, testing and the science behind this plant is a really complicated business. Right? And like so as each state rolls out its regulations, it, it's, they're totally different. They're looking for different, let's say pesticide, they're looking for different pesticides. Maybe they test, maybe they don't test different threshold, different viewpoints on yeast and mold, different viewpoints on recreational versus medical, which there should be separate testing regulations. Sure. Right. Yep.

Speaker 1: Yeah. You have to think of the like the moment when the fda says, okay, here's the new rules, right? What that is going to do to this industry. A whole, because lab testing is in a regulated environment, is in the center of everything right now. Kenny, imagine that all the rules change on a dime on a dime now. Okay. And the effect of this entire industry, when that happens, it's going to be complete and total chaos. Right? And you know, my message to the states, even going back a year ago, it's like, can we just get together and kind of worked this thing out? Seems logical to me. You knoW, I don't care about your regulations for, you know, taxation and all that kind of stuff, but science is science, right? There's not a whole lot of gray area there in my mind and we should be able to all get together, sit down in a room and figure this all out.

Speaker 1: Okay. No, I don't like, probably like controversial to say that, but my mission is not getting cannabis to be federally legal for recreational use. That's somebody else's battle. My battle is like, you know, hey, you know, we're putting people at risk, right? Whether it's legal or not, you know, we as a government or the fda, they have a responsibility to keep people from dying or citizens or society or all of us. I thiNk we would like thEre to be safe patient access and like, can we just get your help? Right. That's my message to them. SaId can we just get your help? Like this is your, this is kinda like your, your wheelhouse. Right? Right. So we've started to provide them with data. Great. Um, so we've started to engage with the fda and we'll kind of see where that goes. Now, as far as data is concerned, uh, kind of speak to that in that you've got a number of dispensaries, you've got a number of companies that are providing you with product and you are providing them with the information about that product.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Right. Back to them obviously, uh, you know, I've seen slides from reggie that just show a tremendous amount of information, right? A scorecard for the folks at home here, you know, what are you showing regulators that it makes it easy for them to understand what we need to kind of have as tent poles of information, you know, a country, there's, you know, it's, it's kind of like a balance. Right? ANd this is something that I would like to see more in this industry as a whole is everyone like becomes the, the poster child for their own viewpoint. sure. And they don't jump into somebody else's shoes, right? And say, all right, well if I do this, what are they going to do? Right. And like, and so, and here's like an example of that. So if a state puts in place regulations that are too strict and everyone fails, what's going to happen?

Speaker 1: So one of two things. What happened in New York is one. Well, no I'm not, I'm, I'm not talking about like what's on the surface. Okay. I'm going to. So what's. All right, well, like if you're on the other side. Okay. And like, you know, what's your reaction to that going to be? There's only, there's two paths that you can do, right? Um, you can either go and direct your product back into the black market, right? Which is not good for anyone. Nope. And I don't really think good for the black marketeers. All right. Hey, if I Want to call them black marketeers. Sure. Because it sucks to go to jail. I'm sure I'd never been there. Um, I don't think it's a good thing, right? um, and, but also tends to force like, so if we failed somebody on overly strict regulations, okay. And let's say somebody yeast and mold limits are too low that nobody can actually get to.

Speaker 1: And in fact, their limits are so low that it wouldn't hurt anyone if, if, if somebody exceeded that number and I'm not going to name any states. Okay. Um, then then that, that grower might end up going to one of the million bad actors in the lab space. okay. So there's maybe, okay, maybe 10 percent good actors in this space. Ninety percent bad actors lab, which is scary. And like when I first like got involved in steep hill, it's like, all right, I have this viewpoint of scientists being like, well, if you're a scientist, you're working by the scientific method. Right? And there is truth, justice and the american way. But like there's no black and white. I mean there's no gray area like it. Like, and I had this viewpoint that scientists would never lie. Right? And like this was a huge awakening for me and affected me really personally because I had, I had scientists on this pinnacle and had great respect for them, right?

Speaker 1: And I do as an industry, but you know, I never envisioned that scientists would lie. Right. And I was just completely blown away by that. And Washington is the worst because of the strict regulations that are no, well really like, you know, you have to look at the kind of things, how laboratories impact the marketplace and one is potency. So that's how it all started. Yup. That's how it all started in Washington is they announced the regulations and, and then growers, like they went shopping lab shopping, right. And you can look at, there's data that shows this happened in a matter of two months. The bad actor labs had 90 percent of the market in Washington by, by, at that point, I don't know if they were deliberately misrepresenting potency numbers or they didn't like understand what they were doing, but they gave higher scientific, they gave higher potency numbers than that other labs.

Speaker 1: Okay. And that became a business model, right? Let's deliver out in the marketplace inflated potency numbers, um, because that's what sells in the marketplace. Um, and let's, let's only focus our consumer, our patient consumers on thc, right? Um, because that's a magic end all be all as far as what candidate, how cannabis affects your body. And it was just totally not true, right? Yup. Um, I would say from a scientific basis, give me lower thc, give me higher level of mercy. And mercy is a terpene, right? Okay. But it's the terpene that takes cannabinoids over the blood brain barrier. So that's when. And you can experience that, like when you get that pop, right? That's actually mercy. We ain't gonna like that where you're like, whoa, what was that? Right? Um, so I would not psychoactively but as well. No, no. Yeah, well biologically, right.

Speaker 1: But myrcene has a huge effect on the candidates experience. So I want, I want to know how much myrcene is that a product before I buy it, right. I assume there's gonna be some thc in there. So we're training our customers and a mark in a marketplace to focus on something that is really not the whole story. There's a whole entourage effect and, and let's not, we can do a whole story in entourage of course, but. So let's not focus on that. But. So then it got. So then like we started educating the consumers in Washington, like go look for a higher thc numbers. Right. And then then the dispensary started to compete with each other. Well, I need higher potency numbers. Then you have, right? So now you will see, somebody told me yesterday like they had seen potency results of 60 percent in flower.

Speaker 1: Okay. Let me tell you, this is biologically impossible. So you can imagine we're just talking about one chemical in the plans, right? yep. There's gotta be some leaves and stems and other shit. What's holding that up as it's growing? You know, you've got to actually have something like we think that, you know, without genetically modifying cannabis that the low thirties, um, is potentially the highest thc you'll ever see because know it's a plant, right? So when you try to push something higher, something else goes lower. Yeah, of course. So there you have the market, you've mentioned regulation. So the market needs to be managed. The scientists in that market need to be managed to be spanked. So we're a little bit here, a little bit more than that, a fair enough. Your, your, uh, a participant in that area. What are your suggestions for what we as an industry should do, you know, to self regulate and what our suggestions to regulators should be a two to weed out these bad actors?

Speaker 1: Well, there's a lot of. Unfortunately there's not an easy answer to that question, but I'm going to give you like a range of things that needs to happen in every single state. If you actually want to nail this problem park at first of all to like iso is great and a lot of states are hanging their hat on that manufacturing standards iso, right? Iso lab certification, which is 17. Oh, two, five. Okay. Um, which is great, but it's not the end all be all because you can be iso certified and still be a bad actor because you know, when they're coming through your labs, like, all right, let's do everything the right way that we're supposed to do it today and that today and then tomorrow we're going to do something totally different. Right? Um, um, so that's not the end all be all, but at least we ha.

Speaker 1: We are getting people to like create good quality labs as a result of that. And then you need. All right, so next layer you need proficiency testing, right? Can you like with a like, so what proficiency does is like, all right, let me give you a sample. Okay. Um, and you tell me what's in it and it's a known standard, right? So when you're doing proficiency testing and emerald scientific is definitely the leader in that space. Okay. So when you're doing proficiency testing, you send out anyone who is doing that round, they call them around. Okay. So when you're, when you're doing that round, emerald ships out, you know, a known quantity of whatever they're doing, the pt on we all call a pet and that could be potency, that could be pesticides, that could be a rsa, which is residual salvin. Um, so, so they send it out to labs and then you had to report back to emerald.

Speaker 1: Alright, here's what's in it, right? So that says, all right, do you know what you're doing? Right? Still doesn't take care of the bad actor? No. But at least like scientifically speaking, do you even know what you're looking at a unit? Have a clue what you're doing. So that's another plus right. Now a next layer on top of that is secret shopping. Okay. So you need the state needs to go out to a dispensary, go buy some stuff, take it back to a lab, see what's in it. Does it match the lab result or what we call it in the industry is the coa. This certificate of analysis. So does that match the lab results right now I'm going to tell you right down in the. In the marketplace, no, there's a few good actors short, right? But it's. It's going to be. It's going to be pretty scary what's out there.

Speaker 1: He's emerald scientific. Then there are a supplier to labs, totally enough validator of labs on a proficiency basis. I'm using that to get to this lab of labs kind of concept, which I've been thinking about talking about with others for years, which is if we do have bad actors and then we do have good actors. Let's go ahead and have a lab of labs in each state or at the federal level which says this lab knows what he or she is doing this lab. Does it. Don't go to this lab. This lab is closed down. Well, you can do that with iso when you can do that. You can do that with iso proficiency testing and secret shopping. Okay. That will take care of that. Pretty much take. There's only one other way. Okay. Okay. Um, to game the system if you want to call it that.

Speaker 1: And I'm not going to give all of the details because I don't want to give anyone the blueprints of how you like more layers of bad actors out there. I do not need to. Great. Although there is something in the regs right now that I want to in California regs that I want to comment. Okay. Okay. But, so like I'm having a lot of experience and getting really pissed off in Washington, you know, um, we've kinda been talking to a few regulators in here, you know, and kinda like tell him like our viewpoint on life. Right. Here's what I've said to regulator, so you really want to understand what's going on in a lab. You need full transparency into the lab. You need to be able to take a sample in the marketplace, go to the lab and say, all right, I want to see all your data.

Speaker 1: I want to see who prepped it. I want to see who analyzed it. I'm going to see what instrument it was done and I want to see your methods on one. I want to know the last time that machine was calibrated. Sure. Maintain whatever that is the only way to actually guarantee that a lab is telling the truth, which brings us to California standards. There's a point there that you do appreciate. Yeah. What is it? That's. Well, they, California put that in perfect. It's like, all right, this is the first state to do that. Um, and that is on the path to actually cracking the, the bad actor problem in the lab space, which as I look at the industry and I say, all right, who's being responsible and who's not being responsible? And if I were an outsider looking at this entire industry, the worst of worst bad actors is the, is the lab portion of this industry.

Speaker 1: They're terrible because they're not being truthful. They're lying, right? Let's just call it lying because you can go, you can walk into a lab, um, and by any certain labs, by any test result you want. And in fact, I heard a story, um, from, um, um, I'm not going to name names, I'm from somebody who came In and had their product tested and knew what should be in it and got a result back from a California lab. Okay? All right. Um, so, so you have to guess who that might be. God, not us, obviously. Understood. And they reported back a really high thc number and the customer said, I'm, um, that's not true. And the lab said, well, we thought that's what you wanted higher. That can't be right. That's crazy. So that's a pretty scary story, right? Yep. And so we've now identified, you have just in the past few minutes here, a ways to kind of combat that.

Speaker 1: Um, and you know, part of that Is making sure that we do have standards in place that are not to overdo, overly burdening. Right. And there's like you have to like, you know, our goal from a lab should be how do we educate growers and manufacturers to pass every time. Yeah, that should be our job, right? Not to fail. People will write that um, which, so, which gets patients a safe medicine, but it's not an instant overnight thing. Right. It's like, like growers and manufacturers need to be able to have time to learn how to do this. Right. So I almost was a, you know, a little bit of self deprecation. I'm from New York, so I brought up New York, but east coast, you know, including a Illinois, you know, that, that kind of a tight fisted approach to regulations versus the west coast. What's your message to regulators?

Speaker 1: What's your Message to, you know, operators of what, how we, you know, some, some quick things that we can Do to kind of make it a little bit easier for patients to get safe medicine. Those areas in those areas. you know, New York specifically, I think they started with if you wanted to have cannabis, you had to be dead or dying. Dying. I die, right? No, but I made it pretty close to dead. No, of course he close to that now. My, my, uh friend who had my very good friend who has a severe case of crohn's, a has his medical card because his crones is so severe, but the medicine that he's getting is not effective for him because the potency isn't there. Right. And there is no flour. There's very limited products on the shelves for him to take. Well we could, we could have that conversation offline.

Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. Yes. Um, no because I don't want to give out medical advice of course, on, on your show. Of course. Yes. Um, but yeah, that's a good, a good thread. But I don't know, it's like when I'm, you know, you might say I'm somewhat of a, I totally believe in the goodness of mankind to the, to my own detriment. And when I looked at this industry, it's like on one hand it's a like I'm going to use like the tickets, the koombaya industry, like let's all join hands and lots of hugs in this industry. Right? but yet like everyone seems to only be focused on their own, on theIr own thing, right? And don't realize that there are other people in this. Right? And that we need a solution regardless of what the problem is that respects the viewpoint. Everyone in the industry, not just yours, whether if you're a regulator, if you're totally lost later, if you're an operator, if he doesn't make a difference.

Speaker 1: Does Kenya just walk a mile in their shoes? There you go. Good advice for anybody doing. Exactly. So the, the final thread, is there a final? So the state put forth, right? That, that sampling. All right, so part of the problem with testing, let's, let's talk a little bit more science for a moment. Fair enough. In the plan. Okay. At like the top of the plan closest to the sun's right? Potency is the highest. Okay. Bottom of the plant. Not so good. Right? So there can be variation in the same plant of thc or probably any cannabinoid of 10 to 12 percent, right? That's not representative. So if you pull a bud off the top, the most beautiful, pristine thing you've ever seen in your life, and you send that to the lab for testing, that's not representative of that plant. The representative is somewhere in the middle median, the mean something, right?

Speaker 1: But it's really not that pristine. But at the top there we go. So California has in its, in its regulations that an employee of the lab needs to be present at sampling along with a representative of the manufacturer or grower. Huh? So like, you know, it's, I don't know, I'm going to use the now it's probably garbage in, garbage out in the end, the geeky world, right? Like if the sample is not representative of the product, what are we doing? What are we doing? Right? It needs to be representative. And this is a way of guaranteeing that, you know, if uh, like, right, so the lab is going to be responsible for testing this product, it's theoretically going to put its stamp of approval on it. It needs to take responsibility from moment one because who knows what the hell you're testing for. Yes. Essentially from seed to test as well, you know, you need to be present to make sure that it's fair and representative of whatever product you're sampling now we disagree, right?

Speaker 1: So California put us regs out and has that in it and I applaud them for that. Okay. Um, and then the other labs, okay, pushed back against that and want to create this, that there could be this, you know, that it could be contracted out. Why would you want that? Why would you choose to have that? Because then you don't have to have employees doing it. Right. And you can also take a sample from la, throw it in the mail and send it up to a kilo up to san francisco and you really don't have to have any responsibility in the process or whatever. So whatever. Right. So where are we now then? Well, we are. We're in disagreement with the other California labs, right? They are pushing for this. So for a third party sampler to be able to do it and my concern just have the teamsters do it.

Speaker 1: That's a a California regulations joke by the way. But anyway, go on. Well, you could potentially create a whole new class of bad actors source because. And you'll have no control over that because even if you were, let's say that you could have a reputable third party sampling company set up, there is no such thing at this moment in time. what would pro and say they're good actors even. RIght? What's going to prevent the actual guy in the field going into business for himself? There's no way to control that at all. So. So we've got some work to do there. Yeah. So if. Well no, it just needs to stay with the California rags on that viewpoint, which which, which, which are currently as they currently are. No changes, no change, no change is unnecessary and that that is the responsible thing to do for estate.

Speaker 1: Wonderful. If I'm an operator, obviously if I'm a lab, I've heard the whole thing, I know what to do, I know who I am, right? If I'm an operator, what should I be taking away from this kind of a. Can you take a longterm view point of the whole thing, right? You know? Yeah. Okay. Like if you're not being responsible right now, one Kenya, just figure out how to grow. Like without failing. That's ultimately the goal, right? To grow. Learn how to grow without pesticides. You know, you can do this actually. Right. Learn how to pass from day one. You don't ever have to worry about failing then. Okay. Um, that'd be my advice for a start and we would love to help you by the way. There you go. You have a lot of scientists sitting around waiting to answer your question. I'd love to be with you.

Speaker 1: Yeah. So what if you're a, what if I'm a regulator or even a legislator and I'm listening, you know, anywhere in this. So I could be from Pennsylvania, it could be for morgan. What are, you could be from Texas, France. Sure. Right? Because like I could, a lot of our focus is outside the United States at this forum. The Netherlands, right. I could not even on my radar. Actually right now, Germany, I can be from Germany. There we go. Yeah. Because we're like, yeah. That would be like, where are we negotiating right now? That's it. I could give me that list. Action. I would imagine. I might even be from Australia. Right. We could definitely put us earlier on that list. So if I'm listening to you, you know, what should I be thinking as I kind of take my headphones? Well, let's, let's go back to what should I take a long term viewpoint, right?

Speaker 1: I want to be. If I was a grower or a manufacturer, I'd like to be in business for more than a year. Right. And the risks are really high, right? Because like, you know, let's say that you, you know, you're a cartridge manufacturer. Okay. Yeah. Which has inherent problems with it because when you concentrate thc, you also concentrate all the bad stuff. also actually you concentrated at a higher rate than you concentrate thc. So if you have pesticides in it, they're going to get super concentrated when you're creating a cartridge and let's say that, you know, some medically compromised patient or even when it comes to pesticides like anyone, um, happens to, you know, uh, utilize that product, right? And then they get sick. Okay? And then that eventually comes out, right? And if you get, We haven't even begun to see the product liability suits that will happen.

Speaker 1: Okay? That's the operators and I'm with you 100 percent, right? That's why we've got to be focused on this. But again, just to, you know, as far as the regulators, legislators that are listening from all over the world, as we, uh, af mentioned, mentioned, what should I be thinking, what should I be doing as far as setting my regulations? what's a good model? What's not a good model? What are good things to be thinking about? Um, well, I, I'd like to say that, you know, we're going to come out with what we think should be the federal regulations. Fair enough. Um, because somebody's got to do it right? Um, I think that Maryland has done a good job. Okay. Why? um, because I think they got it right. I mean I not, you know, there's no perfect system and you know, we also don't have the experience in.

Speaker 1: Right? So we have steep hill, Maryland. Yeah. But you know, they had their little legal battles going on in Maryland, so there's no testing. I need to see that in action before I'd say. Yep. That's it. Got it. Because you need the real life experience. There's a theory and then there's a real life experiences. Why you chose a state that's not an action yet basically. Right. You know. Well, it's good because they don't have to beat on anyone that will know. What I'm saying is you didn't choose Colorado because there's all sorts of situations. Qalo, ranoe there. They need to go farther. Right, right. There are things they're not doing that they ought to be doing, but you also like on the flip side of that, you know, let's not get insane. Right. Like Oregon. Right. Sorry, I'm going to name a name. Sure. Okay.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Because like they put out really good regulations. Yup, but they didn't allow the community to have the appropriate time to build out the hat, right? To have enough labs open to have enough labs, get iso certified to actually ensure that like the whole system worked. The regulations are good. Right. Um, there's a few things that I would tweak about it, but overall they just did it too fast and like didn't go like wow, if we do this, what will happen? Right. you know, that whole walk in somebody else's shoes. Exactly. We can't do this in two weeks. We need takes time and even I would even suggest even even when you look at any contaminant and let's take yeast and mold. Okay. So I start high. No, it's not perfect. Right? Yeah. But people need to learn how to do it. Yeah. As in growers, let's get everything established that, but establish that upfront so that you're right.

Speaker 1: Like we're going to start with 100,000 cfu. Okay. Um, and you're not going to fail on day one if you have product that has 99,000 cfu or colony forming units. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. And then say, all right, but in six months, okay, we're going to be at $50,000 and at the end of the year we're going to be at 10,000. So you know where you're needing to go. Okay. We're going to be plenty of time to get your act together. There you go. Um, if I were doing it, that's the way I would do it because people need time to figure it all out. We're not going to turn. We're not going to turn all growers into scientists and today. Okay. It's going to take a little bit of time. Give them a break. Right? But if we work together with this basic set of tenants, eventually we should get there.

Speaker 1: What we've talked about in the shows the secret. There we go. It's all basically everything you need to do. There you go. I mean, as long as we can get the fda in part of the club also. Yeah, because we don't want that disruption downstream. No, we don't. No, we don't. We're going to have to do your personal cannabis story next time, but I'll just return the second half of the year, you know, what should we be expecting besides the way that you're thinking and what you're doing and everything that you just said. You know, I'm, I'm kind of like to talk about the api, but I don't want to talk about the api. I want to talk about global expansion. Okay. So our viewpoint is really global at this point in time. Um, so we are negotiating for steep hill. Fill in the blank in.

Speaker 1: I'm going gonna, try and see if I can get these. All right. Okay. Here we go. Okay. so, um, Maine, Massachusetts, Massachusetts. Um, we already have Washington dc, which is kind of interesting. Sure. Maryland, Pennsylvania. I'm a so negotiating in Illinois, Michigan, Montana, Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, guam, kind of us short to territory. It's a territory. Um, puerto rico is kind of in the club too. Yeah. Okay. Now let'S get outside of. Oh, Florida, of course. It's a daily changing a thing. I got ya. Um, outside of the United States, Australia. Um, columbia, Mexico. Um, but yeah, we won't get into the wall thing and all that. Berlin, let's go to europe. Okay. Um, Germany, Denmark and all of scandinavia. France sent even, not even legal. They're medically legal yet. I'm czech republic, Switzerland.

Speaker 1: I know I'm missing. So lind no, pullins not on the radar yet. Um, um, China. wow. I'm going to stop the chinese China problem really because It's a hugely contaminated country. sure. Yeah. Um, so we have a solution for a chinese cbd. Ha. Um, so we're going down that path. I'm already mentioned Australia. I know I'm missing some, but like we are so busy right now kind of filling in the steep hill, blank rustin, right? Um, and in our viewpoint, I'm going to tie into the api just for a moment because I'm a, I'm a software guy and you look at everything and you know, everything, um, and like, um, and you know, that was my viewpoint of investing in [inaudible] in the first place. IT's not all right. There needs to be a scientific hub that is providing data to all the stakeholders and not just the traditional, alright, I need to prevent, you know, I need to give results to a dispensary or to a grower, but you know, there are doctors that need medical results that needs scientific results.

Speaker 1: There are researchers, there are governments, there are social media companies. So we started building an api to indra to address the entire industry to provide each what they need, right? So all in one centralized platform, which is a game changer. That sounds fascinating. You said we started building it. Where are we with, um, we, um, we're now ready with the beta [inaudible]. Um, and I'm not going to tell you whose baiting it, but we're, we've selected a few key people, a few key people in the industry to like, all right, let's go see what they think because we have to, we have to in order to supply the need for this in the world, we had to automate actually even the process of saying you want to have our api course, of course, because we don't have the bandwidth to lead people through it. So They will be, we need it.

Speaker 1: We have to have an api developer portal so that people can ask for access, be vetted, we have to educate. Hopefully we don't have to totally teach them how to develop software to kind of integrated into their world. So It's a pretty big project. Huge. And about 20 percent of steep hill are actually software developers at this point. There you go. So somebody asked me like, like, like, or said, oh they wouldn't invest in steep hill because they're not, they're not a software company. And lIke, what are you talking about? Yeah, we're a software big data company. Come on now. That happens to do lab testing. There we go. We end where we began. Awesome. Thank you so much again. We've got one more conversation in us for down the line. Okay. But I'll ask you that last question again, which I like to ask, which is on the soundtrack of your life.

Speaker 1: One track, one song that's got to be on there. You gave us one last time. What was the song gave you last time? I'm trying to remember now. I don't remember. You weren't, you didn't give us a edith piaf. I had an edith piaf right around. I don't know. It's like it just randomly popped up and in, so not me, but it's a song that popped up. Show me the money or is that a movie? It's probably both. Yeah, but. Okay. All right. Oh, it's in a movie. Show me the money's in the. You know the tom cruise situation? Jerry maguire? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe that was actually your thought because that's a really weird thing. Yeah. Because I don't focus on money. I. I focus on creating value and then the money just comes right. So maybe we should go with a different song. I would probably go for jimmy if I were going to go candidates. Yes, I'm jimmy buffett would be at it. Ju mean jimmy cliff. Legalize it. No, jimmy buffet. Jimmy, what does he have to do with cannabis?

Speaker 1: The margaritaville song. No outcome on. I mean, can you imagine sitting in key west drinking a margarita and smoking a joint ice? I mean, come on. That's a pretty good experience. You see you're against prohibition no matter what is your point. We can, you know, let's all manage this. Let's all be our own person, you know, personally responsible. But if exactly there we go, you know, on the musical thing, it's like. So here's another idea, right? Is like, so because there's all these brands popping up out there, you know, like, and they're attaching themselves to strains. Okay, sure. But we think that we can actually create a strain that would create the effect that would match a song. Whoa. And if I was bob marley, that's the kind of cannabis I'd want to be selling. Solutely my goodness. All right, well I'll wait for that. All right,

Speaker 3: jimmy shall always a pleasure. Awesome. And there you have jamie, Michelle Keller bringing up a. You know, really good points about the fact that this industry, this global industry going to have a lot on already has a lot of highs and a behavior has improved. Thanks to him. Thanks to you. Stay tuned.

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Cannabis Economy is a real-time history of legal cannabis. We chronicle how personal and industry histories have combined to provide our current reality.