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Ep.300: Tjalling Erkelens, Bedrocan

Cannabis Economy Podcast
Ep.300: Tjalling Erkelens, Bedrocan

Ep.300: Tjalling Erkelens, Bedrocan

Tjalling Erkelens joins us and shares that Bedrocan’s growth is breathtaking. From a 200 kilo annual production, Tjalling’s operations have grown to now 5,000 kilos of annual production with an ability to quickly scale up to 9,000 kilos of annual production from his two sites in the Netherlands alone. Rather than call it cannabis, the team chooses to refer to the product as an API- an active pharmaceutical ingredient or flos- which is latin for flowers. In some way, Bedrocan is now working on product for Australia, the Czech Republic, Brazil, Italy, Germany, Finland, Poland, Macedonia, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Israel and for testing purposes, the UK. And in short order- Denmark & Greece.

Transcript:

Speaker 2: Tjalling Ekerlens joins us. That bedroom Kent's growth is breathtaking from a 200 kilo annual production channelings operations have grown to now 5,000 kilos of annual production with the ability to quickly scale up to 9,000 kilos of annual production from his two sites in the Netherlands alone. Rather than call it cannabis, the team chooses to refer to the product is an API and an active pharmaceutical ingredient or floss, which is Latin for flowers in some way. Bedrocan is now working on product for Australia, the Czech Republic, Brazil, Italy, Germany, Finland, Poland, Macedonia, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Israel, and for testing purposes, the UK and in short order Denmark in Greece. Welcome to cannabis economy. I'm your host Seth Adler. Check us out on social with the handle can economy. That's two ends and the word economy. Charlene, Kirkland's. Gotcha.

Speaker 1: But it's a bit different, more difficult, but in English you can just say chilling. Oakland. I was. I was very, I was practicing right from our last interview. So, uh, here we are, we're really in the middle of the Netherlands. No, you're up in the north more or less. Our other facility is in the middle of the Netherlands and this is our, this is one of her order more original facilities. It's already five years. Right. And this is the 14,000 square feet is a roughly, right? Correct. And the other one's a little bit bigger, right? The other one is about 100,000 square feet. Right. So the reason I say the middle of the Netherlands is we're not in Amsterdam and uh, and, and the, this is something I've been thinking about Holland, right? Is traditionally it's only those two northern promise promise provinces. Whereas the Netherlands is everything.

Speaker 1: Exactly. So are we officially outside of Holland? Yes. Slash yes. Amsterdam is North North Holland for instance. Rotterdam and The Hague is South Holland. Right. But that's that little area on the coast and that's how long actually. And then there's all of the rest of it, all of the rest of the Netherlands. So obviously you operate here. Um, and I want to kind of get a sense of what's going on here, then kind of take a trip around the world as far as what's happening now and then what's coming and then we'll see what else we can talk about it. Right? But what is happening? You have this brand new huge facility that we're not in and you have the, the, uh, old HQ which we are in. What are you doing here in the Netherlands? How much are you producing per year and how excited are you about these operations?

Speaker 3: First and foremost, the growth is breath taking. Yeah, that's what I can tell you. We started expanding from a level of annual production of 200 kilos, which was still the case in 2012, right? Then we started expanding and to keep it very short, we are yet currently we are at the level of about 5,000 kilos annual production and we can quickly scale up to 9,000 kilos of annual production. And that's from these sites in the Netherlands? Yes. Only these sites in the Netherlands, I'm the current actual production is 5,000 kilos annual. So we have a, we have a weekly output of 100 kilos in different varieties, uh, on all, on an industrial scale basically. So it's an industrial processes will see it and what we are actually producing now everybody's talking about Kennedy's and stuff. We are always talking about an API, an active pharmaceutical ingredients. What does that mean? Well, it actually means that we are making material for other companies that make medicines out of it because that is what we have been aiming for all along and what we are still aiming for and what we still believe in as the right way to make cannabis real medicine

Speaker 1: net going down to a Nanda might, uh, you know, from my conversation with Dr Michelle Lynn. Yes. Yup. Okay. Tell, tell us more.

Speaker 3: Once we found out, and actually it was William's team who found out how our endocannabinoid system works and basically endo refers to the body kind of cannabinoid refers to the substances we finding cannabis cannabinoids and our receptors and our receptors of course. And that's where things are starting to become medical in a certain way. As long as we know what we do, if we don't know what we do, you say something is truly medical. It can work in a medical way, but it's not yet a medical product and that's the exact phase where we are with cannabis right now, so what you basically need an outside production and economy and all those things. You need science and that science must prove unambiguously that these product thus this or that or that in the human body when this or that is happening to you, so you have a disease, you're using a cannabinoid product that can be herbal.

Speaker 3: Cannabis is also a cannabinoid product. You're using that in a certain fashion in a certain amount for certain standardized quality and then the doctor says, okay, this is working for you so I can give it to you and you and you and all the other patients and it's proven in a hospital in hospital research, clinical research, it's proven that for at least compared to placebo, it is 4:40 percent of the people active where placebo is only working for 10 percent of the people. So then it's proven that we have a real medicine, right? It also tells us that it's 60 percent of the people still is not working. Right. Interesting. This is a very important. Now, what studies are you referencing when you give us those statistics? Um, we are basically now referring to multiple studies that have been done with cannabinoid products, like side effects from tw. Uh, we are in the middle of clinical trials already with our herbal products in Australia and the Netherlands.

Speaker 2: Tjalling Ekerlens joins us. That bedroom Kent's growth is breathtaking from a 200 kilo annual production channelings operations have grown to now 5,000 kilos of annual production with the ability to quickly scale up to 9,000 kilos of annual production from his two sites in the Netherlands alone. Rather than call it cannabis, the team chooses to refer to the product is an API and an active pharmaceutical ingredient or floss, which is Latin for flowers in some way. Bedrocan is now working on product for Australia, the Czech Republic, Brazil, Italy, Germany, Finland, Poland, Macedonia, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Israel, and for testing purposes, the UK and in short order Denmark in Greece. Welcome to cannabis economy. I'm your host Seth Adler. Check us out on social with the handle can economy. That's two ends and the word economy. Charlene, Kirkland's. Gotcha.

Speaker 1: But it's a bit different, more difficult, but in English you can just say chilling. Oakland. I was. I was very, I was practicing right from our last interview. So, uh, here we are, we're really in the middle of the Netherlands. No, you're up in the north more or less. Our other facility is in the middle of the Netherlands and this is our, this is one of her order more original facilities. It's already five years. Right. And this is the 14,000 square feet is a roughly, right? Correct. And the other one's a little bit bigger, right? The other one is about 100,000 square feet. Right. So the reason I say the middle of the Netherlands is we're not in Amsterdam and uh, and, and the, this is something I've been thinking about Holland, right? Is traditionally it's only those two northern promise promise provinces. Whereas the Netherlands is everything.

Speaker 1: Exactly. So are we officially outside of Holland? Yes. Slash yes. Amsterdam is North North Holland for instance. Rotterdam and The Hague is South Holland. Right. But that's that little area on the coast and that's how long actually. And then there's all of the rest of it, all of the rest of the Netherlands. So obviously you operate here. Um, and I want to kind of get a sense of what's going on here, then kind of take a trip around the world as far as what's happening now and then what's coming and then we'll see what else we can talk about it. Right? But what is happening? You have this brand new huge facility that we're not in and you have the, the, uh, old HQ which we are in. What are you doing here in the Netherlands? How much are you producing per year and how excited are you about these operations?

Speaker 3: First and foremost, the growth is breath taking. Yeah, that's what I can tell you. We started expanding from a level of annual production of 200 kilos, which was still the case in 2012, right? Then we started expanding and to keep it very short, we are yet currently we are at the level of about 5,000 kilos annual production and we can quickly scale up to 9,000 kilos of annual production. And that's from these sites in the Netherlands? Yes. Only these sites in the Netherlands, I'm the current actual production is 5,000 kilos annual. So we have a, we have a weekly output of 100 kilos in different varieties, uh, on all, on an industrial scale basically. So it's an industrial processes will see it and what we are actually producing now everybody's talking about Kennedy's and stuff. We are always talking about an API, an active pharmaceutical ingredients. What does that mean? Well, it actually means that we are making material for other companies that make medicines out of it because that is what we have been aiming for all along and what we are still aiming for and what we still believe in as the right way to make cannabis real medicine

Speaker 1: net going down to a Nanda might, uh, you know, from my conversation with Dr Michelle Lynn. Yes. Yup. Okay. Tell, tell us more.

Speaker 3: Once we found out, and actually it was William's team who found out how our endocannabinoid system works and basically endo refers to the body kind of cannabinoid refers to the substances we finding cannabis cannabinoids and our receptors and our receptors of course. And that's where things are starting to become medical in a certain way. As long as we know what we do, if we don't know what we do, you say something is truly medical. It can work in a medical way, but it's not yet a medical product and that's the exact phase where we are with cannabis right now, so what you basically need an outside production and economy and all those things. You need science and that science must prove unambiguously that these product thus this or that or that in the human body when this or that is happening to you, so you have a disease, you're using a cannabinoid product that can be herbal.

Speaker 3: Cannabis is also a cannabinoid product. You're using that in a certain fashion in a certain amount for certain standardized quality and then the doctor says, okay, this is working for you so I can give it to you and you and you and all the other patients and it's proven in a hospital in hospital research, clinical research, it's proven that for at least compared to placebo, it is 4:40 percent of the people active where placebo is only working for 10 percent of the people. So then it's proven that we have a real medicine, right? It also tells us that it's 60 percent of the people still is not working. Right. Interesting. This is a very important. Now, what studies are you referencing when you give us those statistics? Um, we are basically now referring to multiple studies that have been done with cannabinoid products, like side effects from tw. Uh, we are in the middle of clinical trials already with our herbal products in Australia and the Netherlands.

Speaker 3: Uh, we have starting up soon with a clinical trials in the Czech Republic. We had preliminary clinical trials already in, uh, in the UK, uh, in, in, in the Netherlands also. We know a lot about our products already. And the most interesting thing of course, is that for that purpose we did standardize how product, but many people don't understand the principle of standardization of cannabis. Okay. Um, what does it mean to you? It means that if you look at the product cannabis and you pick, you pick one flower and you start analyzing debt products and you say, we, I find 500 different chemical entities in debt, single flower within indeed in the flower. Absolutely. Yeah. That you can say, tomorrow I'm going to give you a flower that has the exact same content, all those 500 compounds, but I will also do it next year and I will do it in 10 years from now and I will do it in a hundred years from now. That's what we do. Right. And uh, your, I would infer from, uh, you know, that statement that maybe others aren't necessarily finding that same amount of consistency.

Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it's what we do. That's what you can. It's exactly what we do. That's what you're focused on is this, is this continuity and this consistency. Yeah. Okay. So you are in clinical trials. When would you expect to be kind of be able to give the world some information based on what's happening in these clinical trials? Right? Early next year. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah. We are, we are getting

Speaker 3: to an end with the practical side of things, so then all those guys have to start writing stuff. Sure. They did all their measurements and things. They will start writing stuff and I expect by next year, summer that we have a full workout studies elaborated studies

Speaker 1: atom with a result and because podcast land knows no time. You're talking about 2018 of course. Yeah. And there's a process, of course with a whatever they write, they have to get peer reviewed and then it has to be published and all of this. Right. So some of this has nothing to do with studying. No. It's a process you have to go through and they have to go through. Yeah, exactly. All right. So you, you mentioned the Netherlands, you mentioned Australia and you mentioned the Czech Republic and you mentioned the UK in passing. We'll get back to that. Your choice Australia or the Czech Republic, which would you like to talk about first?

Speaker 3: Let's talk very briefly about the Czech Republic. Uh, we have, we have been in production there for, I think it was late 2015 that we started a production there based on the tender of the Czech government. We were partnering there with a check company. Uh, we did a production cycle of about, uh, we did full production cycles of each, about 10 kilos to check governments, uh, decided that, um, they took our first batch. They didn't took our second batch, not our third bench, not a fourth batch because we should have done the analysis in the Czech Republic and not in the Netherlands have we send samples to the Netherlands to be checked like we do where our regular laboratory is, where this is what we're used to doing. And then, and then they used it as an, as a, as a reason to not take the product because the first 10 kilos they didn't sell any of it or almost none of it because the prescription system in the Czech Republic, which should be an electronic prescription system, totally failed.

Speaker 3: So Dr we're not able to prescribe. And then you end up in an argument with them where they say to the public, we have cannabis no problem. Right. And the public is saying, or the doctors are saying, but we cannot prescribe. Patients are yelling and shouting for it, but he couldn't prescribe. And you are using that as an argument to turn down our business. Anyway. We, we basically, we, we went out for awhile. Let them have their internal discussions first your, they had a few other tenders now nobody applied for those tenders. Uh, so they're in full discussion internally. They are now how to be with cannabis.

Speaker 1: I see. Okay. That's the Czech Republic. Absolutely. And it, it sounds like in the, um, you know, kind of relationship between business and public entities. It sounds familiar how it gets confused and confusing. It seems we have a saying for that and on the hall and Delta and forced my mouth to open. Well, and how does this sound in Dutch? Just so we know how it sounds. It does beg me to make me open my, it's a very rough, extra expiration for something like, don't start, don't, don't get me started. Don't get me started on this. How we say it in New York. Exactly. All right. So Australia perhaps, uh, you know, Australia is it

Speaker 3: very, very interesting place to be for us, especially the Australian government decided a few years ago that they want to go into this, uh, into this field of medicinal cannabis. And they realized from the start we need science to support this choice. So what they did, they just the only government in the world actually who provided significant amounts of money. Millions. We're talking about the study in a clinical setting, the efficacy of cannabis and cannabis products. It's what they're doing right now. I know that patients in Australia are shouting product. There is a, there is special access for patients that are in real need. So things are arranged for. But the Australian government is just now waiting for producers to come with Reggie, not with registered with tested properly clinically tested cannabinoid medicines. And we're in the middle of those processes are a few. I think there are now in Australia, nine production licenses for the actual growth of cannabis are handed out.

Speaker 3: There are four or five licenses for producers who make a product out of it. There are a few for distributors. Um, we are already importing product to Australia right now, what we call cannabis plus the actual dried cannabis flour for special excess. We are talking to several producers, distributors, we are in the face of becoming a licensed producer. They are also, we are strongly related with a manufacturing company that will make products out of our products. That's, it's, it's a very um, how shall I say? It's a very well known process in, in the pharmaceutical world. All those steps you have to make before you can enter the market for real short, real products. So that Australia thing will take for us now still about almost two years before we will really hit the market.

Speaker 1: Interesting. But you're doing all of the things that you need to do, right? Mary work is being done right on time, so to speak, even though it will be two years from now. You mentioned a pharmaceutical and you know, I think the last time we spoke by skype

Speaker 3: we hadn't gotten the GMP. Indeed, so congratulations on that and tell us why that was so important. GMP approvals is basically in, in Europe is the same as FDA approval in North America. So the US and Canada, uh, the GMP approval in the US and in Canada here is comparable to a regular standard industry standards. FDA approved means that you're making a product that is a, that is fashionable, fashionable for a pharmaceutical use. So

Speaker 3: being a GMP certified producer of an API, I'm getting an all kinds of abbreviations right now, but I'm following you. Good. Yeah. Having that status allows pharmaceutical companies that want to manufacturer a cannabinoid product allows them to go basically blindfolded to you and order your product, right? Because the GMP certification certificate you get from your government boom, boom. And it's amendatory certification. Once you're in it. We, in the beginning we were able to make the choice ourself. We were basically pushed by a more or less pushed by our regulatory authorities to go into it because they see our product as a, as a pharmaceutical raw material, so visited and we were good with it, you know, we like it, like to be the guys with the highest standards with regard to quality. So getting into that and having achieved that standard where we now know that many pharmaceutical companies, we're just waiting for us to get there because we see them and we find them ordering product right now and

Speaker 3: we got our certificate this year, January 2017. So we are talking now in October of this year and it's only 10 months ago. Right. And I'm sure it's feels like yours and it's like, yes, especially when you see the ordering status of companies start to order our products right now because these are pharmaceuticals that we know and perhaps love. Yes, potentially. Yes. And, and this whole pharmaceutical kind of purview is, you know, how I guess we should just talk about Canada because there was relationship there and there is a relationship there, but just kind of catch us up to date. Canada,

Speaker 4: um,

Speaker 3: started out I think at the same time as hauling 2003, 2002 with production of cannabis for only medicine. However, it was enforced court cases. People were, uh, were basically pushing the government. The government was not proactive. The government was only octave, so that developed into a pharmaceutical medicalized Kinda be system which most of the people didn't like because they, they want to grow their own very big movement. And Yeah, of course. So that was always, always bubbling under when this system was a, when the system was implemented, it's the system first. Big Change was in 2013 when the new law was allowing for

Speaker 3: licensed producers. The system they have right now. Um, but upon that many amendments were made that were allowed to make our oils and tinctures and other products. And uh, and all of a sudden we had a new government there. Harper was gone through doe, gay men and Trudeau said, we are going to legalized for recreational use, full steam ahead, full steam ahead. That led to a change of plans and a change of mind with all the licensed producers. Not all of them, let's say most of them. Sure. Who then said, but that's a way bigger market that's aimed for that market. Full steam ahead. Let's make our products nice and shiny and whatever. People like we're gonna make it. That's good, but there's one thing that people are forgetting that it's the patient. Right, and

Speaker 3: I think this product makes most sense for patients, recreational use, whatever people may think about it, whatever people may say about it, not my cup of tea to that regard. I. This is not your issue. You're here for pharmaceutical cannabis. Correct. And you know, whatever else happens. The only thing we do and whatever else happened and whatever. People aren't getting happy. Be My guests. Enjoy yourself. Enjoy yourself. No probate. Also licensed producers. Enjoy yourself. Right? But don't tell me that your licensed recreational product isn't medicine. Yeah, because it's not there. Then don't come back in exactly and say exactly. And so that we're, you know, situation not right now there is that we have still a, we have a licensed production company there. It's under the wings of a canopy growth, right. However, we are in discussion with canopy growth already for a longer time a day actually set up an arbitration case because they think we don't perform well.

Speaker 3: Yeah. We don't perform well for your recreational purposes, blah, blah blah. You, you almost agree in that case we almost agreed. Yeah. Right. And, and um, but we do think that it does make sense for better Ken to be a full pharmaceutical company over there also as we are here and we would like to stay in Canada, especially for the patients there. Uh, we will see how this will unfold, but by next year, spring 2018, we will definitely the where we are and we will hopefully have things in the right track to be a full steam ahead working company on pharmaceutical grade cannabis that is fashionable for doctors to be prescribed to patients.

Speaker 1: There we go, which brings us down to Brazil. Right, right. What's happening there? Brazil is

Speaker 3: truly, uh, we have a better in Brazil. Uh, it's basically a sublicense company through the Canadian entity or original agreements. We had their subdivision of continents originating already from the 2010 slash 2011 time. I'm better in Brazil is basically providing material, um, to an other organization called entourage laboratories. Entourage is developing a cannabis oil for a treatment of multiple diseases I think. And uh, they have, they have their licensing in place from the Brazilian government and they are basically doing research

Speaker 1: exactly the same thing as we are going to do in Australia. Australian. So it takes awhile. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so that, I mean, you really are in, in several corners of the world, if not all legit. It's not quite all yet, right? Because we've got to figure out Asia. But uh, I've been there already. Okay. So seeing Japan already, tell us about that. Oh, Japan is a very interesting. And Asia in general is a very interesting region. You see loss already changed in the Philippines. You see,

Speaker 5: um,

Speaker 3: movement to change law in Japan. You see movement to change law in Singapore,

Speaker 5: um, Taiwan

Speaker 3: and in even in Malaysia a, we see a lot of things happening in India. You don't see our sticker there on India

Speaker 1: and just to let, we are looking at a giant map of the world with a big bedroom. Had logo in the corner, a little dots, little x's. Do you call them x's? Yeah. Okay. Uh, in, in, in many of these, uh, places you bring up the Philippines, they changed the law because he, you know, the new, uh, he's not so new anymore, but Duerte or I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that correctly, but he famously is coming after, you know. So what is the law as it stands now? Yeah. The law is changing too. I'm not sure

Speaker 3: whether it's already a enforceable right now, but they, there is at least there is a proposal, a law proposal, governmental proposal to allow cannabinoid medicines to make them fashionable or accessible for patients there they're

Speaker 1: in, which we don't. It's too much detail. No, of course it was what I. But it's fascinating that there could be any movement of any kind. Yeah. Based on, you know, the, his perceived kind of, well perception, same with Malaysia, it's the same, it's the exact same thing. Malaysia has even the death penalty, you still there for drug dealers and also kind of dealers, they are now looking more and more seriously into cannabis as a medicine. Singapore also runs with a pretty tight fist. And so yeah, it's the only country missing there is Indonesia.

Speaker 3: But what you see the surrounding Indonesia and China are doing nothing as far as we know. But uh, the other countries, the bigger the big ones, especially India, Japan and the smaller ones, Taiwan and Singapore and Malaysia are looking into things.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. So we're looking into that now. Let's get back to the, you call it cannabis floss. Is that what you're saying? Kind of a slush. Why do you call it then? Well, it's, it's, um, cannabis is the original, of course, in, in Noman, implant nomenclature, Kennan basis cannabis sativa l, the original species name. Yeah.

Speaker 5: Um,

Speaker 3: Nah, actually I must give credits to the initial director of the OMC here, hold the office of Medicinal Cannabis in Holland in the early two thousands. He changed a lot of nomenclature and one of the things he said we have to rename weed or pot or whatever, let's rename it into cannabis. But what is the actual cannabis? We are selling flowers and he's a pharmaceutical guy. So he was thinking in Latin and floss is actually a, Flores is the single a flower and floor system is multiple flowers.

Speaker 1: So, and he said, let's name it cannabis floss. I love it. Yeah, that's fantastic. I, I shall be calling it that for, from henceforth. Good. So now getting back to this operation, where do we do, you mentioned the production and you mentioned that it's going into, you know, folks are studying it and maybe even some pharmaceuticals or pharmaceutical companies or are studying it. And where are you, uh, supplying a to though? Were you transporting it to?

Speaker 3: Oh the first and foremost, the older transport and exportation is done by the Dutch government. So by the Dutch OMC got it. First thing they argue for that clarification. Yay. We are not doing that one thing. We are currently, our products are being exported to, for human use. So as a, as a medicine under prescription, we're talking Italy, we are talking, uh, I'm going up Italy, Germany, Finland, Poland, Macedonia,

Speaker 5: uh, uh,

Speaker 3: resist coming up, um, island, uh, Norway, Sweden from January first 2018, Denmark.

Speaker 5: Um,

Speaker 3: we're shipping to Israel right now, uh, for a pharmaceutical company over there.

Speaker 5: Um,

Speaker 3: the product is going to the UK for, for research purposes and for research purposes. More product is going everywhere around the world. We, we, we don't even know everything, right? The OMC is shipping smaller amounts of five, 10 grams to several countries for just for research purposes, which is wonderful. And we'll come back to that when we know more. But as far as human uses, you say in those European nations that you mentioned, that's, that's a lot. That is quite a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And, but every country has different regulations. So accessibility is also different. For instance, in a country like Denmark, which is coming up right now, there is a defined group of patients that will get access like in Sweden and Norway too, in Germany Day now, just changed the laws, you know, and now patients have regular access if a doctor prescribes and the doctorate is fully a mandated by the government to prescribe whatever he likes to that regard. And then that way patients in Germany now can get it prescribed and they get it prescribed massively. We, we, we see that. It's interesting to see how influential to that regard the Dutch coffee shop system has been,

Speaker 5: um,

Speaker 3: uh, for also for the German tender, just some numbers. The German tender is about, uh, an annual production of 2000 kilos for patient database that basically on the Dutch numbers of our office of Medicinal Cannabis were in Holland in 2015. There was only for Dutch patients, there was sold about 400 kilos. Um, Germany,

Speaker 5: um,

Speaker 3: population wise it's about five times bigger. Guess what? Five Times 400. It's 2000 where they estimated that the annual use in Germany at 2000 kilos and the tender of the German government is on that level. Yeah. Um, however, everybody seems to forget that we have a coffee shop system that is already 40 years old in, in, in, in Holland and many, many patients before we got our legal medicinal system went always to this coffee shops and kept on doing that. Yes. So we know by, we know for sure the biggest medicinal, a user population in Holland is not yet going to the pharmacy they are going to sell to the coffee shop. Give us a sense more if you would, let's dive in on the coffee shops, uh, you know, what more can you tell us about how the system has changed over the past 40 years, what your involvement would be, if any? I would imagine zero, zero. And if, if that is the case, you know, how you see it just from your perspective. The coffee shop system in Holland was implemented in the late seventies as a result of,

Speaker 5: um,

Speaker 3: as a result of,

Speaker 5: uh, um,

Speaker 3: the way of thinking in those years that you have drugs, drugs to be separated in dangerous trucks and less dangerous drugs to so-called soft drugs, hard drugs, regulation. Hollins was the first country in the world making that real separation there and saying we don't care so much about what we call soft drugs. She's going to be, is basically all the same product compared to the,

Speaker 5: um,

Speaker 3: compared to the hard work like heroin is. Heroin is a disaster that everybody knows that, but these are two different things. Let's treat them differently. In those years, dealers were having, has she's and heroin in one hand. Oh. And even the younger kids were offered the choice. Don't do that. I am basically from that time. I know what happened there in those years I was there, I've seen it. Yeah. And it was not good. Right? So the separation by itself was not a bad idea then it worked out in a certain way. And what you see is that instead of,

Speaker 5: um,

Speaker 3: instead of really then organizing it properly, the Dutch law only to people, you're not punishable if you smoke

Speaker 3: cannabis and you're also not punishable. And then the law went on and it came with certain regulations that said, well you can, you can even sell some, you know, in, in little amounts, but don't ask, don't tell, it was a don't ask, don't tell policy we, we call it huddle, which actually means we, although there is a law saying it's prohibited if you do it up to that level, we allow you and we, we, we, we, we, we, we turn a blind eye on it with a wink and a nod. I went, yeah, yeah, that's it. So that's how it arose. And, and, and use the regulations overtime have been more and more elaborated. However, quality is never allowed to be tested, not allowed to be tested, not allowed to be tested. Why would that be the case? Because that would basically, um, then the product will get to a next level indeed. And that is what they didn't want. I say I'm sort of production is illegal.

Speaker 1: Yeah, still Gotcha. So drawing the parallel to Colorado, that recreational market as well as the Denver, a law that they're working on, which is consumption, which would bring potential coffee shop type places to Denver.

Speaker 5: [inaudible]

Speaker 1: recreational cannabis is certainly tested in Colorado. Um, you know, what would be a good step, you know, as with my American eyes, what I see in the coffee shop system is, okay, that's your recreational cannabis market. Uh, go ahead and test it like Colorado does so that you know what you're doing and let it continue because there doesn't seem to be too much of a problem there. Or Am I missing

Speaker 3: something? There are a few things would kind of base that we have to be careful about, especially the youngsters, uh, of our world that have,

Speaker 3: that have still brains in development. We know from, we know from clinical research in that field. Got to protect everybody under 18 if not 21. Yes, definitely. If we are there then we can make next steps. Good. Okay. Um, I'm fine with everything. So government, do what you need to do there. Um, I'm, I will not comment any further because this is, that's the recreational world. Yep. Um, let's have a beer this afternoon at five. Totally. And, and we will talk more, elaborate about it outside the company, inside the company. This is where I stopped. I totally understand. Totally understand and I appreciate that. Now let's just then jump back into the rest of Europe. And what are you hearing from Macedonia or Poland or Finland? What are you hearing from, you know, a export from mixed? Always mixed. We have a mixed feedback, uh, accessibility for many patient groups who still difficult. It's still hard. Uh, there are, uh, although our products in the pharmacy are basically cheaper than suite products nowadays, um, people key, that's a key. That's key. But if you are a real patient and you need kind of based on a daily basis, multiple times, and even if it's because people now in the pharmacy here are paying about,

Speaker 5: um,

Speaker 3: eight euros at grim altogether. Um, so in, in US dollars it's about nine, nine and a half dollar per gram.

Speaker 5: Um,

Speaker 3: average use here in Holland measured, oh, point seven, but let's say that most regular patients take about a gram a day, which means about $9 a day, 30 days a month. It's gets to be a lot. It's almost $300. They are, many of them are on social assistance or whatever or whatever. They might have thousand dollars or $1,100 a year, a month. So they have to pay $300 only for their cannabis, which is not doable for them. Um, so reimbursement is a really shoe in Holland. We had reimbursement up and until mid this year for many patients, uh, all of a sudden out of the blue, a health insurance company set up on a news article of a regulatory organization that looks into medicines and, and, and, um, the approval of medicines said it's still not proven that cannabis does the thing people are claiming. It does still lacking a clinical evidence. So we add, they advice literally insurance companies to quit reimbursement.

Speaker 1: The insurance companies themselves or they advise the insurance companies who, who's they? It's an organization called the healthcare institute. It's a government organization. Okay.

Speaker 3: Um, and, but they advise, they do officially advise how insurance companies on their, uh, healthcare policy.

Speaker 1: This is a different part of the government, which is the same government that is exporting your cannabis. Yeah. Correct. Okay. Yeah. So there is, um, there is some discussion right now

Speaker 3: going on, but we saw, we saw a dip in, we saw a dip in turnover. Sure. Several tens of percent know the percentage of about 30, 40 percent dip.

Speaker 1: So do you have universal healthcare here in the Netherlands? Yeah. Um, I wonder what your thoughts are, right? If we are looking at cannabis to be, uh, you know, Madison and we know that it is and it needs to be dealt with that way with these various countries having all of their issues. And my country of course has plenty of issues. This being just one of them. Right? So, um,

Speaker 1: is there a different path whether you have universal health care or not, is there a different path forward here that does, um, that can somehow avoid insurance companies, you know, whether it's a group plans and collapse and, and, you know, uh, getting doctors together with actual patients and kind of skipping the middle man, have you thought about kind of, because that's always going to be, those insurance companies are always going to get in the way no matter what country you go to get across the world. I know they will, they will keep on fighting and protecting their wall up as much as they can. Sure. It's what it's, that's what I would do. It's their towels the way they have to do that. Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's tough. Um, so basically the only thing we can do

Speaker 3: is provide them a convincing evidence, better information and better information on the efficacy of this product. Fair enough. And that indeed leads to the question, what is then the product and how does it look at how does it work? Then you get back to your clinical results and this is really true and I think the most important thing though is that if we look at cannabis floss itself, so in the actual flower a, it's something we, um, we bring in, in, in a standardized form right now. And it did,

Speaker 1: I want to mention two very, very interesting

Speaker 3: things that just recently happened. Um, it's the, uh, uh, the w m a, the World Medical Association in its last week conference in Chicago said we need more research in cannabis and we need the right products to do that. I'm about to write them a letter and saying I at least have the right product for you. Yeah. Including, I'm working on the research and we're working on the research and if you want to cooperate, you're more than welcome. So that's one thing. The other thing is, um, it's an organization called the ast. It's also in the US based organization for standardization. Yeah. They set up a chapter for cannabis under the section. Also from a pharmaceutical perspective, we need standardized cannabis. Otherwise we cannot make next steps and I agree to that, right? Because when we are talking cannabis, we're not talking only thc, it's I set it in the skype meeting with you as well.

Speaker 3: It's not only thc or CBD, we're talking about. We're talking a whole range of compounds in that product and of course if you are able to take out thc solely or cbd solely, that can be a medicine and you have to do your trials and you can get it from every plant or cannabis plant species. That's not a problem, but if you want to provide people with herbal material as a medicine, it needs to be always the same. That's that's, that's a mandatory thing. Otherwise you cannot do your research. Now Dr will become insecure. What am I prescribing them?

Speaker 1: Patient thc. What's the rest? What's the rest of that scene? It. I can give you coffee with sugar and milk, but I can also give you coffee, black, you know, whatever. But what's the. What's in it? Yeah, and it makes a lot of a difference. You won't drink coffee with milk and milk and milk and sugar. Correct? I will not drink the black one you just said. That's the difference. This is my actual coffee choice that channeling is talking about. Yeah. So, uh, then drill down to the anatomy that we talked about earlier, you know, and then we'll kind of make our way out of this thing, you know, how, how far, uh, you know, how far down are you and how close to that are you? Because I think that's Ms Dot Williams. Ultimate dream is for us to be talking about that I think. Of course. Yeah, of course.

Speaker 3: Okay. And then the might and thc are family and Michelle on what he did was really good stuff. No problem. He made in the end, he was the one who made the product fashionable for the rest of the world. Sure. But only talking about thc. Cannabix dial later on. Another point he made, he extracted it. He purified. It's put it it in patients and saw effect. We have seen already a lot of cannabinoid medicines on the market. Mary. No, of course it had two sadie facts. Uh, um,

Speaker 1: but marinol synthetic though, right? It's all synthetic, but it's a molecule is a molecule and if you have delta nine thc, the actual molecule from the plant after Deca box relation. Sure.

Speaker 3: It's not different from the natural thc. It's however, however. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The product in the plan comes with so many other compounds that,

Speaker 1: you know, basically that's where we have to look for the difference certainly, but when we talk about the synthetic ones, and I am doing my best not to mention them by name, when my body reacts differently to a synthetic than it does to the actual plant. So you hear about side effects from marinol. I know, I know there are no side effects to cannabis, but you know, it's a plant. No. So what do we do there? You know what I mean? We need more research. We need more science.

Speaker 3: Make the day. I'm not sure about Marinol with regard to Delta eight to tag because Delta eight thc isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't, isn't other ice Amir from a, from a t and c Delta Nine, Delta eight and there are a few more. Uh, and if quite often in synthetic cannabis use, and especially the synthetic thc that has been derived from cbd kind of be dialed. Sure. That's where you see a lot of Delta eight coming up. So Joe is a different product in the end

Speaker 1: and I, uh, it sounds like this is not the gold standard that we're going for. We can certainly do better than this is what. Yeah. So what I have been looking for

Speaker 3: for is actually to standardize a herbal product in the end, the herb itself have always the same chemical content and bring that to patients because we already have seen so many times that patients always get back to Kennedy's. Yeah. Even if they had the most wonderful products made by pharmaceutical industry extract or pure fights, a cannabinoids even then people just get back to cannabis to actual cannabis itself. And of course the other thing is

Speaker 1: that the plant is actually the cheapest factory you can think of for those products. Right.

Speaker 3: If you're, again, if you're saying a treatment with cannabis is costing about let's say $300 a month for a patient as discussed. Yep. [inaudible] 12 months a year, it's about three $3,600 a year for a full medical treatment. It sounds a lot of money, but it's actually not that expensive compared to many, many other men

Speaker 1: in the grand scheme of things. Correct. And then compared to other medicines that are deductible, so to speak. Yes. Yes. And even with other medicines, quite often you other medicines next, tell me about it. To fight the side effects and then there are a few more side effects and you need to fight them as well. Yeah, that's you end up with a pill box with 12 different medicines which, and the, you know, number 12 is solving number 10 and number 10 to solving number eight. Number eight is solving number six, which is remarkable. It's remarkable in the worst way possible and coming from the US, I totally understand. Yeah, exactly how that works. Exactly. Alright, so just one last thing before I get to the three final questions for returning guests. Thankfully you are a returning guest. So your calendar for 2018 just give us a sense of understanding, right? That the only thing that, uh, we can always say about a forecast is that it's wrong. Right. But as you said, cystics, that's it. As you see 2018 right now, just, you know, q one, q, two, q three, q four. What are you expecting? What are you seeing, you know, um, as far as your time? Um,

Speaker 3: with regard to production, I see an increase of production for, especially for Europe right now. Europe is opening up very fast and, and in a very defined way, pharmaceutical product, Dr. Skin prescribed. Just go ahead, come with products, organize your stuff. Germany is opening up right now. So the German basically the results of the German tender will be, will be published, German will be.

Speaker 1: It's a market the whole world is looking at right now. That's a sea change as California is for us. Correct. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, so

Speaker 3: in q one we will know what will happen in Germany. Got in q one. We will for better again, we will know what happened, will, what will happen in Australia and we will get better informed about Israel. What, what will happen there? Because the, we are moving forward very quickly there as well. I'm in q one. We hope for us as a company already to have insight in our clinical results of the first trials. We hope to have them published next year. Summer acute too. We're talking about q two in q three. I expect that if everything goes well, we are at least building already a new facility in Australia.

Speaker 1: Um, and we found a very nice place to do that. There are many nice places in Australia. Oh, look at that. Okay. Uh, it's more soon

Speaker 3: and we, we obviously we will know what will happen in Germany. I'm, I'm, I'm just curious how things will unfold there

Speaker 1: as far as and when we talk about Germany and the rest of the European nations that you are already working with. Phil, what advice, what information do you have for regulators as they look at this? What absolutely do you know works and what absolutely doesn't work as far as simple regulations for your country or state for that matter? Um,

Speaker 3: you need multiple producers. Don't work with one producer. We are. People do see us as a monopolist, which we are basically not because there's every five years at tender for this product, but we are the only ones subscribing to the tender in Holland. It's very interesting to see how many, many, many organizations jumped on the German tender. Nobody jumping on the Dutch tender, but it's there every five years, every five years already. We are in the fourth tender already right now. Um, so for regulators always take at least two producers that at least at, if not many, not many more, but take care of that. The markets has the size that allows for multiple. Of course, the juicers also. That's the other thing for regulators is very important that they see, that they see to it that doctors, the healthcare specialists, they are the gatekeepers, that they are educated properly.

Speaker 3: Without them, nothing happens, nothing happens. Obviously you need doctors to prescribe to patients or like in the North America date advice patients, but still then they need to be, uh, informed in the right scientific neutral way. That is a very important thing. Scientific, neutral, what mean scientific and therefore neutral. And therefore, therefore, in a neutral, um, science, sometimes it looks sometimes that science is lying, but science doesn't know everything. It's science starts with the question always. It's imperative to science. It's what science is. Science is a question trying to find an answer. And that answer gives you two more questions. Two more answers with, for more Christians. You know, that's what science is about. That's why scientists will always be employed, of course, like lawyers in a different much, much different way. Yeah, exactly. Always work. Um, so anyway, uh, so education of doctors, a multiple producers, a highest possible standards don't allow, don't allow a second level centers go for the highest level.

Speaker 3: And although it looks, oh, it just growing a plant, there is so much to that. Um, yeah, it's good luck is what if we're just growing a plant. Yeah, right. All right. So the three final questions for returning guests. What would you change about yourself? If you could, what would you change about anything else? If you could? And then the final question is always the same on the soundtrack of your life. One track, one song that's got to be on there. First things first, this might already be something that you're working on, but what would you change about yourself if anything? Become more confident in what I do. Why you seem pretty confident. Like I said, every, every answer, gifts. Two more questions. Fair enough. Fair enough. That's well said. What would you change about anything else?

Speaker 5: Um,

Speaker 3: and the calls are starting so we know it's time to go. Almost. Let me see who's trying to. Okay. Put it off. Um, what would I like to try in the rest of the world? It's an answer I gave, but it's, that answer is getting very near already. I want to have automated cars, older world, but it's very, is a very stupid thing, but I, I see, I see so many stupid things happening on the road. Oh sure. And I would like to row to be like, up in the air. Yeah.

Speaker 1: And, and less prone to injury, so to speak. Exactly. So, uh, you know, you're a Schmo Hawk in everyone else's eyes when you're driving on the road. Right. And my father, my grandfather has a saying for this, which is, you've got to think for the other guy when you're driving. Yeah, yeah. Your point being, we shouldn't have to do this. Let's get beyond it. Let's get the bed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Alright. Soundtrack on the soundtrack of your life. One track, one song that's got to be on there.

Speaker 3: Uh, let's get to back to a very old one. Uh, you know, the free

Speaker 1: free. All right now. Yeah, of course. Paul Rogers and the boys. Totally. Charlene. Thank you so much again. And there you have [inaudible] and episode 300. Want to thank every single one of the guests, including jolene that has been on cannabis economy. Without them, it doesn't happen without the supporters. It doesn't happen them without you, the listeners, it truly, truly doesn't happen. So thank you.

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Cannabis Economy is a real-time history of legal cannabis. We chronicle how personal and industry histories have combined to provide our current reality.