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Ep.347: Tim Cullen

Cannabis Economy Podcast
Ep.347: Tim Cullen

Ep.347: Tim Cullen

“Jeff Sessions, as much as we disagree on all sorts of topics, he’s right. Marijuana is federally illegal and marijuana needs rules and protections in place by states like Colorado, California, Washington, Oregon, Maine, Massachusetts, need to come together and stand up for these businesses that they collect tax revenue from and give us something better than a flimsy piece of paper with a couple rules on it that any administration can pull away. And until that happens marijuana and Jeff Sessions, it is illegal and Jeff Sessions is right.”

Transcript:

Seth Adler: Yeah, you and I Tim Cullen were talking about the automation of society essentially.

Tim Cullen: Terrifying.

Seth Adler: It's a little bit terrifying.

Tim Cullen: I think what's terrifying about it is that it's sold to people as convenient without realizing the consequences of ...

Seth Adler: It is convenient. That's the problem and people really like that. People don't like to think about consequences. Have you noticed?

Tim Cullen: There's a couple examples. I've just been following it casually. When this all came up from your discussion in New Orleans. What'd you learn down there?

Seth Adler: I was speaking with the research community in artificial intelligence and they don't think that the singularity is upon us. Meaning where machines essentially take over. They don't think that that's going to happen any time soon. They do think that there are other issues that are big issues such as the one that you're talking about. Entire changing of our economy and where people are employed and how people are employed. Once you get to a certain percentage and above of people, hey, actually your high paying trading job on Wall Street, that might go away, but there's going to be plenty jobs in automation where you can be employed. You might not make as much as you were making but you can certainly make some money.

Seth Adler: These jobs that you're talking about, at the till, at the register, driving a car, this whole Uber and Lift economy, what happens to those jobs? We have no idea. And what do they do?

Tim Cullen: They go the way of Blockbuster when Netflix comes up. They disappear.

Seth Adler: They disappear. And so I really do see these two worlds as colliding meaning that if we get to a scope and scale in cannabis and include hemp so that we're processing fiber and making construction materials and t-shirts as well as wellness materials, we have a place where there are plenty of jobs for people that used to drive a truck. That used to run a register. Plenty of jobs if we can actually start doing just that. Now we have just started to do just that with .3 TCH and above. Certainly there is an industry where it wasn't but there's, what was the issue again? I can't remember what the issue is. Oh right, federally illegal.

Seth Adler: Yeah, you and I Tim Cullen were talking about the automation of society essentially.

Tim Cullen: Terrifying.

Seth Adler: It's a little bit terrifying.

Tim Cullen: I think what's terrifying about it is that it's sold to people as convenient without realizing the consequences of ...

Seth Adler: It is convenient. That's the problem and people really like that. People don't like to think about consequences. Have you noticed?

Tim Cullen: There's a couple examples. I've just been following it casually. When this all came up from your discussion in New Orleans. What'd you learn down there?

Seth Adler: I was speaking with the research community in artificial intelligence and they don't think that the singularity is upon us. Meaning where machines essentially take over. They don't think that that's going to happen any time soon. They do think that there are other issues that are big issues such as the one that you're talking about. Entire changing of our economy and where people are employed and how people are employed. Once you get to a certain percentage and above of people, hey, actually your high paying trading job on Wall Street, that might go away, but there's going to be plenty jobs in automation where you can be employed. You might not make as much as you were making but you can certainly make some money.

Seth Adler: These jobs that you're talking about, at the till, at the register, driving a car, this whole Uber and Lift economy, what happens to those jobs? We have no idea. And what do they do?

Tim Cullen: They go the way of Blockbuster when Netflix comes up. They disappear.

Seth Adler: They disappear. And so I really do see these two worlds as colliding meaning that if we get to a scope and scale in cannabis and include hemp so that we're processing fiber and making construction materials and t-shirts as well as wellness materials, we have a place where there are plenty of jobs for people that used to drive a truck. That used to run a register. Plenty of jobs if we can actually start doing just that. Now we have just started to do just that with .3 TCH and above. Certainly there is an industry where it wasn't but there's, what was the issue again? I can't remember what the issue is. Oh right, federally illegal.

Tim Cullen: That's what I was going to say. The driving force of any of that happening is the federal government. There's no question about it.

Seth Adler: So you and I really spoke recently essentially in the grand scheme of things but then Sessions rescinds the Cole and Ogden memos and puts his own memo there. And you said something like truly wacky and you're not one of these hippie dippy types, I mean you're of the earth type person. You're salt of the earth type person, but you do have a sound mind on top of your sound body. Before we get to what you said, as an industry practitioner, what do you think the implications were when you woke up that morning and saw this news?

Tim Cullen: That's a great question Seth. I was already awake that morning when I learned about that news.

Seth Adler: Which by the way, Colorado's time that means you were awake early.

Tim Cullen: I am a pretty early, last time we talked I told you about this journey that I've been on.

Seth Adler: Indeed.

Tim Cullen: This personal, personal, spiritual journey which has never really been a big part of my life for a long time. And so I wake up about 5:30 in the morning. Sometimes I sleep into as late as 6:00. I always start the day with a meditation, sometimes it can be as long as an hour, typically it's a half an hour.

Seth Adler: So this continues.

Tim Cullen: This continues of course. Of course. It's part of what I consider my sanity regimen at this point. I need that time.

Seth Adler: Got it.

Tim Cullen: I just finished meditating and a text came through at 6:30 in the morning and it was an NPR reporter with a question asking if I'd go on the record about the Ogden memo and the Cole memo being taken away by Jeff Sessions. And so I took a deep breath, I just finished meditating, I said, "All right, don't overreact. I don't know what this is." So I got online and I started looking and sure enough, there it was. I had a three to five minute minor panic attack where I felt my heart rate starting to get faster. And I knew all of a sudden today is going to be kind of a crazy day. What does this look like?

Seth Adler: Because we had talked about your business changing and going away from medical and you wanted to keep medical as an important part of the company but that is was going away from that. If anything the Cole memo's being rescinded certainly speaks directly to adult use side. That's certainly why you're tingles would be tingling.

Tim Cullen: I was tingling. And then I decided in a very zen sort of way, I have no control over this. This is Jeff Sessions. This is the federal government. I'm Tim Cullen in Colorado and I'm going to see what happens. And I'm not going to predict whether it's good or bad, I'm just going to see how this rolls out. And the more I've been able to think on that, I've decided I think it's a good thing. I do. Jeff Sessions, as much as we disagree on all sorts of topics, he's right. Marijuana is federally illegal and marijuana needs rules and protections in place by states like Colorado, California, Washington, Oregon, Maine, Massachusetts, need to come together and stand up for these businesses that they collect tax revenue from and give us something better than a flimsy piece of paper with a couple rules on it that any administration can pull away. And until that happens marijuana and Jeff Sessions, it is illegal and Jeff Sessions is right.

Seth Adler: Yeah, and as you were getting that text I was on a train on my way down to Washington DC to interview Jim Coligan who did say, "Hey listen, even when we put out these memos, the better solution would have come from the legislature." That's the better solution because marijuana is illegal. I'm using that word because that's what's in the legislation in the controlled substances act.

Tim Cullen: Absolutely. I mean it's easy to lose sight of that in my little bubble of existence because I'm in retail stores, I'm in Colorado. It is legal. I'm around people who it's very acceptable. But outside of my little bubble it's everyone does not feel that way. You were talking about hemp earlier, I think hemp will be the tip of the spear for a lot of these more conservative agricultural communities that look at farmers in Kansas are not going to sit around watching farmers in Colorado grow industrial hemp and make more money than they do for very long without saying, "Hey maybe we should bring some of those seeds over here and Kansas can do this also."

Seth Adler: What I've been hearing, lower cost, higher return, better for the environment but if we're talking to a certain person you just don't even worry about that. Lower cost, higher return. Number one state, Colorado, pat yourselves on the back again. Number two state Kentucky. Number three state, North Carolina. Those are not hippie dippy blue oasises.

Tim Cullen: No they're not. They're not. They see the value in industrial hemp, that new products are being produced from construction materials to fiberglasses to oils and machine grade anything.

Seth Adler: Anything that could be cog or plastic essentially.

Tim Cullen: Or paper. Trees. There is a huge potential there. And it's got nothing to do with smoking marijuana. And that industry will be much larger.

Seth Adler: Has to be.

Tim Cullen: Than the dispensary model in Colorado.

Seth Adler: Here's my question to you then, if I'm just kind of waking up to this whole hemp thing and we know that it is certainly not anywhere near the growth, the scope, the scale that the traditional now traditional, cannabis industry is, how come you guys aren't in on that? How come there's not more land grabbing going on as far as industrial hemp?

Tim Cullen: Oh man, I think it's got a lot to do with all the other hats that we wear. We all have these full-time jobs. Although I do have visions sometimes Seth.

Seth Adler: You know we're working hard Seth.

Tim Cullen: Of jumping on a tractor and plowing a field all day. I think I might be good at that.

Seth Adler: Sure you would.

Tim Cullen: I think I'd be pretty satisfied doing it too. But in the meantime until something changes, it's radically altered my day to day. There are very few if any investors looking at putting money into cannabis businesses as a result of that.

Seth Adler: As a result of?

Tim Cullen: Jeff Sessions removing the Cole memo and the Ogden memo.

Seth Adler: So this empirically Tim Cullen's message is this absolutely affected investment money.

Tim Cullen: Oh, without a question. No doubt about it. It is much more difficult today than it was just a couple months ago to grab investors. There's not as many people looking. It's changed that part of it. I think in the next six months, I think by sometime this summer ...

Seth Adler: Here's the quote folks.

Tim Cullen: Here it is. Cannabis will be legal federally. It's coming.

Seth Adler: So now let's talk about this. It's February when you and I are talking of 2018 because podcast land knows no time, you're saying in six months, right?

Tim Cullen: Cannabis will be legal.

Seth Adler: So you're saying like August of 2018.

Tim Cullen: Sure, yes.

Seth Adler: Cannabis federally legal, medical? Adult use? What are we saying? Paint the picture for us.

Tim Cullen: I think the federal government will allow states to move forward doing what they've been doing. I think just the same way alcohol prohibition rolled out it will for cannabis. If Colorado wants to have recreational and medical cannabis so be it. If Oklahoma does not, so be it. They're not going to make them to do it but it's going to become ...

Seth Adler: Your state laws are your state laws.

Tim Cullen: Exactly.

Seth Adler: In order to do that you have to change the controlled substances act as I understand it.

Tim Cullen: That's my understanding as well. And I believe there are four bills right now, Cory Booker's is the one I'm most excited about. One of them is going to gain traction and that is going to happen because whether that happens or not we still pay local taxes, state taxes, federal taxes, all the money is being collected. It would open up banking to make that legitimate instead of looking for private investments we would go down to our bank and say, "Hey we'd like to open another store." And we'd fill out a loan application just like any other business would. It would allow us to not be penalized by 280E which is the number one last domino that has to fall for cannabis businesses to be successful.

Seth Adler: Well certainly. And it would also make you a lot less busy if 280E wasn't around then you maybe could look into hemp in all seriousness.

Tim Cullen: Absolutely. There is this still this public perception that owning and operating cannabis businesses anywhere in the country is this highly profitable, oh my god, how do you spend all that money that you're making?

Seth Adler: What do you do with it?

Tim Cullen: Sort of idea. And the reality of the situation is if you're complying federal law, there is no money left over. If you have a great month, you pay more in taxes. If you have a terrible month you pay less in taxes but the law works as it was intended. There is no money left over at the end. All of it goes to the federal government in 280E.

Seth Adler: What if it's the schedule two bill that happens?

Tim Cullen: No. That can't happen either.

Seth Adler: You don't think that that's going to. Again, back into Tim's prognostication.

Tim Cullen: That would be my prediction is that there is some form of that and medical marijuana becomes a schedule two which means it has to be dispensed through a pharmacy. It has to come through physicians. That there will be large pharmaceutical companies that develop cannabis based medicine.

Seth Adler: That could be the reality that you're talking about.

Tim Cullen: Absolutely.

Seth Adler: Is what you are saying.

Tim Cullen: Absolutely.

Seth Adler: Okay.

Tim Cullen: And the dispensary model in Colorado, the recreational dispensary model, becomes a lot more like a liquor store. That marijuana is legal, we're not penalized by 280E, people have access to it, businesses operate and pay taxes very similar to what we have now but medical marijuana goes to big pharma, recreational marijuana continues on as it is but in this, in a model like that.

Seth Adler: If this is going to happen this quickly, it's not the attorney general that makes the decision, it's our elected officials who come from all of our states and they have to pass something that gets through the House and the Senate. As far as writing out this prognostication, which one do you think it's going to be?

Tim Cullen: It's got to go through the House and the Senate.

Seth Adler: Meaning it's not going to be de-scheduled. It's probably going to be schedule two. If we follow Tim's thinking.

Tim Cullen: I believe Cory Booker's bill will allow for recreational marijuana.

Seth Adler: How many Republicans are going to vote for that?

Tim Cullen: I think marijuana's uniquely positioned.

Seth Adler: Cory Gardiner will vote for it, sure.

Tim Cullen: Cory Gardiner will vote for it.

Seth Adler: Yes that one. Now we got one.

Tim Cullen: We'll see if Cory has a job in November here. I think it's going to happen before that.

Seth Adler: I understand. You're saying August.

Tim Cullen: I think you can find bipartisan support for cannabis legalization. There is no reason that Republicans are not all over this. It's about state's rights. Personal freedoms.

Seth Adler: We agree, totally.

Tim Cullen: It's about tax revenue. It ticks all the boxes.

Seth Adler: It's their issues.

Tim Cullen: It's all of them.

Seth Adler: Certainly. But you're asking them to actually vote for legalizing cannabis within the year of 2018.

Tim Cullen: So I'm going to broaden the scope for you just a little bit so I don't get pinned in this corner here that I see you taking me to.

Seth Adler: I'm trying to simply define the corner.

Tim Cullen: If 280E were repealed, that is essentially cannabis legalization in Colorado.

Seth Adler: I'll take it.

Tim Cullen: Because then we're treated like all other businesses, we have access to banking, we're not penalized on our taxes. And cannabis is legal in Colorado. If 280E were removed, schedule one or no schedule at all, cannabis is legal in Colorado and the people participating in it are not penalized for being participating.

Seth Adler: And you have faith in that happening.

Tim Cullen: I have faith in that happening and I have faith in the federal government, God I can't believe I just said that out loud.

Seth Adler: That's when you said it out loud is when I called you.

Tim Cullen: It's I'm struggling with that. I do believe that it is a big enough issue revenue wise, strictly speaking revenue wise, for these states to stand up for cannabis legalization.

Seth Adler: But what about the federal government actually getting more from you with 208E? So why would they give the money up?

Tim Cullen: Oh sure. Well I believe along with 280E going away there will be a new federal cannabis tax.

Seth Adler: Excise tax.

Tim Cullen: An excise tax, a sales tax, something that's collected at the point of sale. Something we pay internally. Because you're right, it's a catch 22, why would they remove the highest revenue generating source from the IRS right now? The IRS is just like my business. They run PNLs, they look at their opportunities and they know that cannabis businesses pay these bills when they get them and so we are audited more frequently than any other business. And that revenue stream is not going to be cut off. It will change to a different more consistent tax stream that the federal government collects through cannabis as part of that but 280E will go away. Something will replace that, that revenue will not just be lost.

Seth Adler: Got it, got it. And that can happen this year.

Tim Cullen: That can happen.

Seth Adler: Steve Mnuchin, the treasury secretary who in the beginning of the year said that AI won't affect jobs in the US for 50 years, just to connect the two conversations, also just said I think even yesterday, again podcast land knows no time, that we do have to work on safety as far as cannabis is concerned and he's the type of guy, you would think, that would say, "All right, we'll take away 280E but here's your excise tax." Boom done. Whatever. He doesn't care, right?

Tim Cullen: Why should he care?

Seth Adler: Exactly.

Tim Cullen: Why should he care. I look at our current president's polling numbers here and there.

Seth Adler: Going up. Going up and up and up.

Tim Cullen: Well I think they go up significantly if you took on a strategy of being a Republican and saying, "This is what the people want. This is a state's rights issue. This is about revenue. This is about not having to increase taxes and generating revenue from the sale of a product."

Seth Adler: It all plays perfectly into the whole thing.

Tim Cullen: He could be much more popular very quickly if he did some of the things that vast majority of people would like to see happen in the country. And certainly that's a small step in the scope of his entire persona. But I believe that he could be convinced of that. And I think there are lots of logical arguments for it and really no logical arguments against it.

Seth Adler: Other than, I used to think the KKK were good people until I found out they smoked marijuana.

Tim Cullen: And the dirty hippie side of it. Clearly that's not been the case in Colorado. The sky has not fallen. People still go to work. And they have access to cannabis and the state is collecting huge amounts of revenue from it. It's built into the general fund. They plan on that money now.

Seth Adler: It's working folks.

Tim Cullen: I was delighted that day to see everyone from John Hickenlooper step up to ...

Seth Adler: It's Cory Gardiner himself.

Tim Cullen: Cory Gardiner stepped up, our senator.

Seth Adler: Yelling and screaming from the well of the Senate.

Tim Cullen: Exactly. The mayor of Denver. Marijuana enforcement division sent out.

Seth Adler: State attorney general.

Tim Cullen: State attorney general. So Seth, I've never seen a time where the federal government did something like that in any arena and everyone turned and looked at them and said, "Nah, we're not doing that. This is going to be business as usual. You guys don't freak out. Keep the doors open we're not enforcing these new rules."

Seth Adler: I think there are new federal attorneys that have been seated in both districts that cover Los Angeles and San Francisco that have been put there by Jeff Sessions so I do think that there might be another shoe that still hasn't dropped as far as that's concerned.

Tim Cullen: Sure. That will be the least popular thing that they will do. The scariest aspect of it to me is for the price of a stamp these businesses can be closed. All they need is a cease and desist letter and people are not going to prison over cannabis anymore. If that threat is made you will see the market fold. But I think you'll also see ...

Seth Adler: You'll see the market fold. What are you saying?

Tim Cullen: People will close their doors. Dispensaries will not be open.

Seth Adler: I see. It's not the same type of person that would go to jail to keep the dispensary open because we need to make sure that sure that this is legalized. These are business people now.

Tim Cullen: Right. You're not seeing federal enforcement with stormtroopers dressed in black pointing guns in people's faces at 3:00 in the morning. It's a cease and desist letter and people will shut their doors, lay off their employees, fall out of their leases.

Seth Adler: That's sad. That's depressing a little bit.

Tim Cullen: It is. It's not that dramatic of an ending to it. But this administration has been in place for more than a year. That has not happened. There's no public support for that whatsoever in Colorado.

Seth Adler: Not in Colorado certainly.

Tim Cullen: Not in California.

Seth Adler: No certainly not. But there's maybe 12, 15% public support.

Tim Cullen: Right, right. I'm under the impression 25% of the country voted Donald Trump into office also.

Seth Adler: Yeah, no, no, I'm saying separate from that, cannabis legalization has 70, 80%, sometimes 90% when you are just talking about medical and so those I'm saying the other side of that fence is 12, 15%.

Tim Cullen: Right, right. There is still a minority that is not happy about it. They're very vocal still in Colorado. They are the ones that buy the billboards and put the edibles up on there and act like people hand them out at Halloween. It's never happened.

Seth Adler: Funny to see the folks starting to eat Tide pods literally by the way. Because my example was always don't Tide pods look so dangerous because that's ridiculousness of the edibles thing because we've put them in childproof packaging and the whole thing and it's obviously very well regulated and I used to say, "Well we've got to regulate Tide pods just the same way." And sadly we Americans have proven that maybe we actually do. It's ridiculous.

Tim Cullen: I'm always in awe of what people come up with.

Seth Adler: Amazing.

Tim Cullen: Tide, we were discussing Superbowl ads before we jumped on here and in this past Superbowl, Tide had more ads than anyone did on the Superbowl. They didn't touch that issue at all.

Seth Adler: Oh they didn't mention it.

Tim Cullen: They, never, never, never, oh no. No, and I thought they could've done something kind of funny about it.

Seth Adler: Yeah, I would bring up the fact that we're dealing with poison though.

Tim Cullen: Oh no, no. Yeah, I would think as soon as you put that thing in your mouth you would know right away that you should not keep that in your mouth.

Seth Adler: How is it a thing? That's the weird.

Tim Cullen: Is it really a thing or is it a social media thing? How many people are really eating Tide pods? That's not the same person doing it twice.

Seth Adler: I got it.

Tim Cullen: I don't know. I think sometimes these things get ...

Seth Adler: It's bots.

Tim Cullen: A little blown out of proportion.

Seth Adler: It's the Russian bots that are eating the Tide pods.

Tim Cullen: There just can't be that many people eating Tide pods.

Seth Adler: I hear you.

Tim Cullen: And if they are I also a big fan of natural selection and those teens should be taken right out of the gene pool.

Seth Adler: I literally, I said this, I don't know where I was, I was in a taxi or some sort of ride sharing situation and I said to the, we were having a conversation somehow because I talk to everybody. If you eat a Tide pod and die, I'm okay with that. I'm a really big softie and I really support everybody and we, we've all got to look out for each other and I really believe in the community but if you're eating Tide pods man, do we need that guy?

Tim Cullen: Maybe there's an advertising twist on this, cannabis, safer than Tide pods. It's clearly safer than Tide pods.

Seth Adler: I've been saying this the whole time is my point. All right now I want to be selfish 'cause I want to ask you about Crohn's. So you have Crohn's and let's give a clinic as best we can on at least what you personally, your own self do in regards to your Crohn's.

Tim Cullen: Sure. I was diagnosed with Crohn's in 2006 so it's 2018 now so I've been living with it for quite some time.

Seth Adler: That's 12 years.

Tim Cullen: I am very fortunate that it is not a huge issue in my life because for some people it is absolutely terrible. It changes.

Seth Adler: All encompassing.

Tim Cullen: You cannot jump on an airplane. You cannot be more than 30 seconds away from a bathroom at any point in time.

Seth Adler: You know my very good friend I've told you about is literally everything is based around essentially based around Crohn's. What are we going to do? When are we going to do it? How are we going to do it? Crohn's needs to be taken into account at every second.

Tim Cullen: Right. And that is a tragic reality for a number of people that have it. And even though I'm going to tell you my story, the last time I was at my doctor and singing the praises of not having to deal with this on a very regular basis, he said, "The past is no predictor of the future. This could change for you at any time and this could be a huge issue in your life in the future or not. We just don't know. There's not anything to say that it matters. That you're not having this issue now."

Tim Cullen: I am really careful about what I eat. I try to eat organic, healthy food. And he's said, "That's got nothing to do with it." I haven't consumed alcohol in over seven years. He said, "Nah, doesn't have anything to do with it." It's very hard to wrap your head around it.

Seth Adler: He said diet has nothing to do with it?

Tim Cullen: No. No, some of it, they give you a little fact sheet when you're diagnosed with it like I suppose they do with every disease. They said to stay away from raw seeds and hard to digest foods, salads and things like that. But I eat salads and I had nuts on my yogurt this afternoon before I came to sit down with you. That doesn't seem to be what causes it for me. For me, it's almost all stress related. If I cannot regulate my stress I can have a flare up from it. I take a prescription from my doctor. I take two pills in the morning and two pills in the evening. They're outrageously expensive. I have absolutely no idea why after 12 years there's not a generic version of these but there is not.

Seth Adler: There's no money in it, Tim.

Tim Cullen: They are $1,200 a month to take these things.

Seth Adler: I'm saying there's no money in the generists to make it generic.

Tim Cullen: I was under the impression that after 10 years your patent sort of expired and then it opened up to the market.

Seth Adler: But the market would have to think that it would be ...

Tim Cullen: Worthwhile to make it happen.

Seth Adler: Exactly. And so FU.

Tim Cullen: Well yeah. And I'm the one paying that. I am fortunate enough to have insurance and I have a job that allows me to buy these pills. I take, on the cannabis side of it, because that has been an important part of it, I take cannabis, I take 10 milligrams of an edible in the evening before I go to bed with the prescription pills that I take also. And I have not had a flare up in six years now.

Seth Adler: When did you add the edible?

Tim Cullen: It wasn't until, it had to be 2009 that I started doing that. It was when I got a, when I went into renew a medical marijuana card I sat down and spoke with a physician who actually has spent a fair amount of time traveling between the United States and Israel. Israel is one of the few countries in the world that funds cannabis research at the university level and he was working on a study about Crohn's with a controlled group, with a research group and he said, "Let me just share what this looks like. 10 milligrams of cannabis taken with an edible," and he was very specific about the edible.

Seth Adler: As an edible.

Tim Cullen: As an edible, seems to have a dramatic effect on Crohn's disease and flare ups. And he said, "Just try it. Just give it a go. You have nothing to lose. Just go for it." And so I started doing that.

Seth Adler: Did you notice a difference between just the pills and just the pills plus 10 milligrams.

Tim Cullen: I didn't. But when you have a flare up it's a big deal.

Seth Adler: So did you notice less flare ups or fewer flare ups?

Tim Cullen: Less flare ups. I have not had a flare up. I have not had a flare up.

Seth Adler: Aha. That's the key.

Tim Cullen: Right. I've not had, actually I take that back. I told you it was six years ago that I did. But it wasn't very scientific, I had actually convinced myself over the course of time that I did not have Crohn's. I was not having flare ups. I was not having an issue with it. I weaned myself off of the medication and I had not taken any medication for Crohn's in about a year and then I got a flare up. And I had to go back to the doctor and they put you on steroids, prednisone, which had never taken it. It's terrible. Heavy doses of this Pentasa drug. And then they get the flare up under control then you can start to wean off of these drugs to kind of a stable state that you're taking every single day.

Tim Cullen: And my doctor looked at me in the eye and said, "You have this disease. You really have it. Don't convince yourself you don't. You're going to be on this medicine for the rest of your life. You cannot wean yourself off of it. This will happen to you again. Maybe you'll get a year and a half next time before it happens. Maybe you get two months. Maybe it happens the next day."

Seth Adler: But it's happening.

Tim Cullen: But you need to be on this medicine. So I'm taking advice from two different physicians. I take 10 milligrams of cannabis every night along with two of these Pentasa pills and I am symptom free.

Seth Adler: And it's the combination of those things that you think that is not giving you the flare ups. I want to kind of pinpoint what the cannabis is doing if we can or is it that I just know that this plus this is working.

Tim Cullen: It is this plus this is working for me.

Seth Adler: Got it.

Tim Cullen: And I think it's also stress management. But I think stress plays an interesting role in everyone's life. Stress is an important part of the reason why people are still here. You need some stress in your life.

Seth Adler: But that's the other big change that you have made is managing that stress as we talked about in the beginning of this conversation and in the other one. You are on top of that in a real way.

Tim Cullen: Oh I don't think you could my job and not be on top of that in a real way not and maintain a quality life and feel good about yourself and be able to hang out with the family. It could be all consuming if Jeff Sessions had removed all of the banking regulations and said banks were just not protected any longer. We're not insuring banks, we're not allowing banks to bank themselves. There's no access to ...

Seth Adler: But what's interesting, that Fincen guidance by the way, that went along with the third Cole memo, did not get rescinded.

Tim Cullen: Right.

Seth Adler: So that was interesting.

Tim Cullen: I was surprised about that. There is a lot of value in cannabis companies having access to banks. Still, Colorado Harvest Company opened nine years ago in 2009, I still am in awe where the banking situation is. You have this really highly regulated industry over this plant that's never killed anyone from packaging to pest control to vetting of employees. It just goes on and on. The applications, the renewals, it's so amazing. And then the end of that process is, well you know, it's going to be all in cash and you guys really don't have access to banks so just we can't really track what you owe in sales tax so we think we're going to audit you at some point but make sure your sending in what you're supposed to send it. It's just so willy nilly.

Tim Cullen: At the end of it I cannot believe that there is not a better solution out there still. And it is going to happen. There is going to be banking for cannabis businesses is still out there. But like I said earlier, the banking is fine in Colorado, I know it's not other places. It needs a lot of work still. It's 280E, that is the last domino.

Seth Adler: That's the thing.

Tim Cullen: That is it for us. If 280E went away, cannabis is legal.

Seth Adler: So your quote, so to speak, really is about 280E. If we get down to it.

Tim Cullen: In Colorado for Tim Cullen yes. It's about 280E.

Seth Adler: Okay, fair enough.

Tim Cullen: But I also believe that there are enough other states and enough momentum and I am so thankful California finally, I thought it would be New York Seth but it turned out to be California. But cannabis needed one of those two states to legalize locally and that is the kind of a market that has a bellwether effect on the rest of the country. It moves the needle.

Seth Adler: By the way, that was sarcasm about New York just in case you're keeping score at home.

Tim Cullen: I think New York will float a legalization bill.

Seth Adler: They are yes. Of course. But we don't have the cannabis culture of California. It's a totally different thing. I'm very bearish.

Tim Cullen: It's still delivery.

Seth Adler: I'm very bearish on New York. But that's okay. I just want to, because we finished the Crohn's conversation, basically what I learned is meds, whatever the meds are, that they are giving you.

Tim Cullen: Take them.

Seth Adler: Yeah. Plus cannabis.

Tim Cullen: Yes, take it.

Seth Adler: Plus the meditation though.

Tim Cullen: Yes.

Seth Adler: Plus the really manage your stress.

Tim Cullen: Oh absolutely. I think that stress management is not just for people with Crohn's.

Seth Adler: That's everybody.

Tim Cullen: We've discussed this in the past also.

Seth Adler: Exactly.

Tim Cullen: It really is one of the most important things you can do to be a happy person.

Seth Adler: If you're one of the humans.

Tim Cullen: If you are a person on this planet, you should be taking a few minutes out of the day to calm your mind and get in the right place.

Seth Adler: I gotta do that tomorrow morning. I've already asked you the three final questions for returning guests but I need to ask you the final question, the final question always is the same. On the soundtrack of your life, one track, one song, what's gotta be on there?

Tim Cullen: So Seth I knew this was coming so I thought about this on the way down.

Seth Adler: Oh good.

Tim Cullen: And for me right now, in the market in Colorado, watching what's happening is Welcome to the Jungle, Seth. Guns N' Roses man. I would think over time over the last nine years I think you would expect if you entered a job nine years ago that you would continue to get better at it and it would be easier and you would be more productive and you would figure things out along the way. Nine years into this I still scratch my head and I'm like, I did not see that coming. It's a whole new thing to figure out. Certainly I have gotten better at it. We are wiser. We've made mistakes that small businesses make. We've been overextended. We've had bad months and great months and the whole thing. Man, it is still a jungle out there. It is very difficult. It is very, very difficult.

Seth Adler: Essentially you have to have an appetite for destruction.

Tim Cullen: There you go.

Seth Adler: And that's Guns N' Roses. Thank you so much Seth. Appreciate you having me back on.

Tim Cullen: Of course.

Tim Cullen: And there you have Tim Cullen. Always a pleasure to speak with Tim and kind of catch up with him and get an understanding of how things change and the more they change, the more they stay the same. Very much appreciate his time. Very much appreciate yours. Stay tuned.

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Cannabis Economy is a real-time history of legal cannabis. We chronicle how personal and industry histories have combined to provide our current reality.