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Ep. 407: Tjalling Erkelens, Bedrocan

Cannabis Economy Podcast
Ep. 407: Tjalling Erkelens, Bedrocan

Ep. 407: Tjalling Erkelens, Bedrocan

Tjalling Erkelens, based in the Netherlands with one of the oldest semi-recreational cannabis programs in the world, compares the global development of cannabis. Change and progress towards legalization, particularly for medicinal marijuana, are happening on all continents across the globe. But each country seems to be taking a different approach, whereas we should be aiming for alignment and harmonization to give patients consistency when travelling.

Transcript:

Seth Adler: Tjalling Erkelens returns. Welcome to Cannabis Economy. I'm your host Seth Adler. Download episodes on canneconomy.com. That's two N's and the word economy. First, a word from Wana Brands and then Tjalling Erkelens.
Wana know with Wana Brands, Nancy Thomas.

Nancy Thomas: I think the gummies are going to continue to dominate as the industries number one edible. And people have asked me why that is and I think there's a number of reasons but one of them is that we've all really gotten used to taking medicine in gummy form. Some very large percentage of vitamins is now taken and ingested in gummy form. So I think it's a natural, plus people love gummies. They're delicious.

Seth Adler: They are delicious. I just had some.
Tjalling Erkelens, welcome back to Cannabis Economy. Thank you so much for giving us a few minutes. I know that you're in the Netherlands because I've seen that map behind you in person.

Tjalling E.: Yeah. Yeah. I am back in my office in the Netherlands. I was out for a couple of weeks doing some conferences in places like Aruba, and I was in Boston last week. So things are happening. Yup.

Seth Adler: Yeah. We had the opportunity to have some breakfast. So very much appreciated that, and that was in between Aruba and Boston.

Tjalling E.: Exactly.

Seth Adler: This is your life, right? You go to Aruba and it's actually for business.

Tjalling E.: Yeah. And you even take a dive and then you lose your phone. That's basically what happened.

Seth Adler: Yeah. You're serious. That's not just happenstance. You actually did lose your phone, but you've got it back now. And, again, the entire world is behind you or should we say in front of you. And let's go ahead and take the opportunity to as we move into 2019 get that global update from you. You are in the Netherlands.

Tjalling E.: We are based in the Netherlands.

Seth Adler: Yeah. Let's just start there as far as what is the latest?

Tjalling E.: The latest in the Netherlands is that we are starting to see a shift. The Netherlands actually has one of the oldest medicinal cannabis programs. Actually has one of the oldest let's say semi-legal recreational programs running for more than 40 years now, the so-called coffee shop system, which is totally separated. So it is the aim of the Dutch government to keep those things fully separated as well. That is kind of different as towards what is happening in other countries. So in the Netherlands, we also have seen a shift with a regard to medicinal cannabis. Last year where the insurance companies based upon an advice from an organization called The Dutch Healthcare Institute, they said they're still lacking evidence, duh, duh, duh, and you should not reimburse. And that's actually where all the insurance companies said, "Okay. Then we'll quit."
The other thing is that we have our first clinic results coming up right now on evaporated flower. Those results will be published this week. Although that is what all my colleagues are telling me around me. It will be out this week. So it's pretty exciting now.

Seth Adler: And this is kind of related to last thing. We need research. Okay, fine. Here's some research. I went ahead and I did it, right?

Tjalling E.: Yes. It's exactly where we are. So where we bring our fully stigmatized flower, which is always the same as it should be, we were able to get into those clinic trials because the product is always there. It's one of the prerequisites for bringing a product to market. You must be able to provide it always. The product you have in trial, that product should be on the market. So that's what we actually do. That trial was a fibromyalgia trial on pain. I'm still not allowed to speak ahead of the publication, but it's worthwhile reading the outcome. And I can tell, it's really worthwhile reading the outcome. It is a positive outcome I can tell. They have been using, they have been trialing different varieties. Actually three of our varieties have been trialed, and it's compared to placebo. It's very interesting to see those results. They will be published in a magazine called Pain, and that's where we go.

Seth Adler: Tjalling Erkelens returns. Welcome to Cannabis Economy. I'm your host Seth Adler. Download episodes on canneconomy.com. That's two N's and the word economy. First, a word from Wana Brands and then Tjalling Erkelens.
Wana know with Wana Brands, Nancy Thomas.

Nancy Thomas: I think the gummies are going to continue to dominate as the industries number one edible. And people have asked me why that is and I think there's a number of reasons but one of them is that we've all really gotten used to taking medicine in gummy form. Some very large percentage of vitamins is now taken and ingested in gummy form. So I think it's a natural, plus people love gummies. They're delicious.

Seth Adler: They are delicious. I just had some.
Tjalling Erkelens, welcome back to Cannabis Economy. Thank you so much for giving us a few minutes. I know that you're in the Netherlands because I've seen that map behind you in person.

Tjalling E.: Yeah. Yeah. I am back in my office in the Netherlands. I was out for a couple of weeks doing some conferences in places like Aruba, and I was in Boston last week. So things are happening. Yup.

Seth Adler: Yeah. We had the opportunity to have some breakfast. So very much appreciated that, and that was in between Aruba and Boston.

Tjalling E.: Exactly.

Seth Adler: This is your life, right? You go to Aruba and it's actually for business.

Tjalling E.: Yeah. And you even take a dive and then you lose your phone. That's basically what happened.

Seth Adler: Yeah. You're serious. That's not just happenstance. You actually did lose your phone, but you've got it back now. And, again, the entire world is behind you or should we say in front of you. And let's go ahead and take the opportunity to as we move into 2019 get that global update from you. You are in the Netherlands.

Tjalling E.: We are based in the Netherlands.

Seth Adler: Yeah. Let's just start there as far as what is the latest?

Tjalling E.: The latest in the Netherlands is that we are starting to see a shift. The Netherlands actually has one of the oldest medicinal cannabis programs. Actually has one of the oldest let's say semi-legal recreational programs running for more than 40 years now, the so-called coffee shop system, which is totally separated. So it is the aim of the Dutch government to keep those things fully separated as well. That is kind of different as towards what is happening in other countries. So in the Netherlands, we also have seen a shift with a regard to medicinal cannabis. Last year where the insurance companies based upon an advice from an organization called The Dutch Healthcare Institute, they said they're still lacking evidence, duh, duh, duh, and you should not reimburse. And that's actually where all the insurance companies said, "Okay. Then we'll quit."
The other thing is that we have our first clinic results coming up right now on evaporated flower. Those results will be published this week. Although that is what all my colleagues are telling me around me. It will be out this week. So it's pretty exciting now.

Seth Adler: And this is kind of related to last thing. We need research. Okay, fine. Here's some research. I went ahead and I did it, right?

Tjalling E.: Yes. It's exactly where we are. So where we bring our fully stigmatized flower, which is always the same as it should be, we were able to get into those clinic trials because the product is always there. It's one of the prerequisites for bringing a product to market. You must be able to provide it always. The product you have in trial, that product should be on the market. So that's what we actually do. That trial was a fibromyalgia trial on pain. I'm still not allowed to speak ahead of the publication, but it's worthwhile reading the outcome. And I can tell, it's really worthwhile reading the outcome. It is a positive outcome I can tell. They have been using, they have been trialing different varieties. Actually three of our varieties have been trialed, and it's compared to placebo. It's very interesting to see those results. They will be published in a magazine called Pain, and that's where we go.

Seth Adler: So podcast land knows no time. It is probably out now, but just based on when we're talking, we can't go further into that. Bottom line though is you are a business and you're doing a clinic trial and it's coming out. That's the news if you will. So you are able to export your product from the Netherlands. Flos, if I remember correctly.

Tjalling E.: Yes. That's the word.

Seth Adler: Yeah. And so let's go ahead and take a tour and see where things are and where things are going.

Tjalling E.: So products, we're already in a number of European countries, available a small number actually. If we look let's say four years ago, we were only talking three European countries, Germany, Italy and Finland. Those were the countries that allowed in very limited way allowed product in. Of course, Germany is one of the changing its game. Italy is changing its game. Finland, not so much, but we see other Scandinavian countries, basically all Scandinavian countries are coming online. Interesting to see where all those programs initially were compassionate use programs where patients in a very difficult process were finally then allowed access to cannabis. Sometimes it took months for patients. Now we see full blown system, especially in Germany. And Italy arise where patients have regular access where they can just go to a pharmacy with a prescription off their doctor, and where they can buy products.

Seth Adler: Still expensive.

Tjalling E.: Yeah.

Seth Adler: So as far as changing the game, it sounds like okay, well give patients medicine that really need and okay, fine. But let's not actually really worry about this. Now we've got actually some governance around it. So what can you share? I guess let's specifically talk about Germany quickly as far as how they've changed what they're doing.

Tjalling E.: So they took out a lot of herbals for patients. So initially patient, the doctor had to go to the government asking a special permit for that specific patients to have access to the product. Where in many cases the access was just denied. In early days, patients were even told that by a guy that you should actually pray more. This was really things that were being said. I'm talking 10 years ago, but it happened. So now we are getting to a point where we see that patients have way easier access. There's a bunch of doctors in Germany that are willing to prescribe. We see that group is not really big. It's what you see basically everywhere. They are very specific and very dedicated, and they are helping out a lot of patients. So where we heard about in March 2017, when the new law came in play, it came into action in Germany. We saw about 1000 patients at the time. On year later, year this year, there were about 16,000 patients. The interesting part is that when you compare it to let's say Canada in those years when the medical program started, we saw almost 100,000 patients after one year.

Seth Adler: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tjalling E.: In a different system. Canada has a parallel system to the pharmaceutical system. So doctors were less responsible actually in Canada. Where doctors in Germany are fully liable to whatever happens to their patients if they prescribe cannabis. So doctors are more careful in prescribing any products. If a doctor wants to prescribe and the insurance company doesn't reimburse the product, the German doctor has to pay for its patient. It's one of the things that comes along with their job.

Seth Adler: Wow.

Tjalling E.: Yeah. So if that happens in serious cases, if a doctor says up front, "I want a prescribe to patients, but I don't know what's ..." It's off labeled kind of situation. Then the patient has to pay itself. But if the doctor takes the responsibility upon them and then the insurance company says, "I don't reimburse because this, that, that," and they are entitled to, then the doctor has to pay. So that is a serious liability upon the doctor.

Seth Adler: Rather strict. I would imagine things are different in Italy as far as it being potentially more loose.

Tjalling E.: Well ...

Seth Adler: Not necessarily.

Tjalling E.: Not necessarily. I'm not entirely sure how it is now, but in the beginning in Italy, only a very small group of doctors with a specific education background were allowed to prescribe. So mainly being a specialist working in the hospital. So not the general practitioners were not allowed. I still believe that is the situation. Patients that want a prescription in Italy have to go to the hospital. Maybe Italians know themselves very well and they it that way.

Seth Adler: Right. And Finland is the other one that brings up the rest of the Nordics. What's different now than maybe even six-12 months ago?

Tjalling E.: Denmark. I'm still suffering a little bit from but it's not a story. I will tell you later.

Seth Adler: A bit of an injury so to speak.

Tjalling E.: It's flying too much and trying to sleep in the plane. Finland actually has a very conservative program still. Around Finland, Norway, Sweden also relatively difficult providing access but in a difficult way. Denmark fully legalized medicinal cannabis by early this year. We see patients being prescribed. We also see the Danish government doing a few weird things within the European context.

Seth Adler: What does that mean?

Tjalling E.: They actually allow producers to produce cannabis. They allow manufacturers to product products. They allow those manufacturers also to export products once it's done and fully compliant. They can export but there is no import of Flos allowed for production of medicines, and that's in the European context is a little bit weird because we have the European free trade zones where product that can come in can also go out and the Danish are not keeping that into the back of their mind the right way I would say.

Seth Adler: But they have a unique ... As I'm learning, they have a unique relationship in the EU anyway, right? Or they usually do things differently.

Tjalling E.: Everybody in the EU is doing things differently in the end. Everybody has this own, little unique niche in whatever they do. I will not talk about the British. But they are totally out now. At least we think they will be out. Nobody knows right now. But the French are doing things differently, and actually France is one of the last countries now, the big countries in Europe, picking it up.

Seth Adler: Let's talk about it. How is that program going?

Tjalling E.: Not yet a program. I wish it was. But they are talking about it. So politicians ... A few weeks ago, politicians and subject matter experts came together at a conference in Paris. We were actually there to just witness what was going on. We were invited also. More companies and more interested groups were invited. The call is out now in France. The political call is out to start legalizing cannabis for medicinal purposes. In February, there will be the Cannabis Europe Event, which has spread out it wings now also to France that will be in Paris. It's a one day conference, relatively small, but it is starting to happen there. And if the same things happens in France as what happened in the UK this year, then we will see France fall pretty quickly. And it will happen actually because the European Medicine's Agency is already preparing for European regulations and quality measures for cannabis to be brought to market in Europe in a harmonized way. So having said that, it makes sense for France now to say, "Okay. Let's be there then and let's be European."

Seth Adler: Yeah. So 2019, as we make our way in here, you and I said this to each other when we saw each other, 2019 just seems like the year of international cannabis.

Tjalling E.: Yeah. Totally. That will be the year where more politicians will come to their senses, start to understand that this is not something that will fade away or will go away in whatever sense. This is something that is here to stay, and we need to actually embrace it rather than push it away because you cannot push it away. It's everywhere in the world. It's happening not only in Europe, it's happening of course in North America, but in places, it starts to happen in Asia right now as we speak. It's start to happen in Africa. So basically on all continents these things are happening.

Seth Adler: Let's talk about your empirical understanding of what's happening in Asia. Share with us what the latest will bring here.

Tjalling E.: The latest thing is that the country of Thailand is actually legalizing it right now. They are ...

Seth Adler: As we speak.

Tjalling E.: That's big. It's full in the works. We see a lot of things now moving, a lot of moving pieces there. Actually the Thai government is reaching out to multiple countries where legalization has taken place for medicinal cannabis. So they actually will come to the Netherlands next month already in January, and as we speak, this will be broadcasted, it might already be there in January. Thailand is coming out. Malaysia has shown interest. Singapore has shown very serious interest. We are actually working in India. Obviously India is one of the longer lasting efforts already. We are getting into India. There's only a small number of companies and research group that is allowed to work with the product, but they have very defined goals and that is where things are really starting to happen. So we are talking actually very big and large jurisdictions here. Yeah.

Seth Adler: South Korea as well.

Tjalling E.: South Korea obviously. They came all of a sudden online. Japan definitely has an interest, but Japan is difficult. It's one of the most difficult countries actually aside of China.

Seth Adler: Sure. China is China. But as far as difficult is concerned, I have been doing this for over five years, and I've always heard that Australia is nearly there.

Tjalling E.: No. Australia is not there by far.

Seth Adler: Very deliberate, right? Very deliberate over in Australia for some reason. Not sure why.

Tjalling E.: They are basically Australia is British where I was in Boston. I've seen the Tea Party history. So actually the U.S. is not British anymore.

Seth Adler: Right. Yeah.

Tjalling E.: Australia is still British.

Seth Adler: Got it.

Tjalling E.: Very British. Australia loves the more conservative approach, the pharmaceutical approach. They take pride in taking the right way, but they are also, they have a commercial feel as well. Definitely it's there. So if the Australians ... Actually Australian model is a very nice model because it's strictly pharmaceutical model that will not allow for separate systems. However, it's a business written model. So companies, if you want to like to show something, show us your real medicine according to pharmaceutical rules. So that is where in Australia everything ... You see that blanket thrown over it. Research is needed. You need to do your clinical trials, and you have to come with an actual product that has proven authenticity.

Seth Adler: Yeah. We've mentioned England a couple of times. We'll leave it because of course you've written something for us for Cannabis Economy. So folks can go to canneconomy.com. That's with two N's, and read more about that. You also brought up, I think you said South America. I know you said Africa. So let's do South America first and then maybe we'll finish our global tour with Africa. What's happening with South America as far as your concern?

Tjalling E.: South America as far as I'm concerned we see things happening in Columbia. Columbia has a sincere interest also in what happens in Europe, but what we see mostly in the South American countries is how can we get out of South America with product and start making some money.

Seth Adler: Export, export, export.

Tjalling E.: Export, export, export, export. That's the major call right now. Uruguay especially, all those countries are looking for a way to get into Europe, Jamaica. Actually, I was in Aruba. Aruba's very small, but they're saying, "What can we do? Where can we profit from that?" As an aside, yes, of course, and our own patient needs something. But it's mainly driven by economy, which just makes sense in many ways, but as we are a more patient-driven company, I always bring that into consideration immediately. The most weird thing in that regard still is Portugal where they allow production for export but nothing for their own patients, which is still weird to my mind. These things are happening. So that regard, I know that in Brazil ... Brazil, for instance, there are several initiatives, laboratories, scientists that are looking into CBD products, making something there. But I don't see that taking off very quickly because most of those governments, especially Brazilian one, are relatively conservative when it comes to controlled substances.

Seth Adler: You mentioned Uruguay, and I wonder are they finally starting to turn the corner. Because early on, legalized as an entire country. So is it becoming more of a system now?

Tjalling E.: As far as we see and what we hear, it's still a mess.

Seth Adler: Okay.

Tjalling E.: Put it mildly.

Seth Adler: It is what it is. But just before we go to Africa, north of Africa is the Middle East. So Israel needs to be mentioned in any global update. What would your point of view be?

Tjalling E.: Israel is still facing some difficulties on the bottom end actually. The grow end, as we speak, there are difficulties there. There are regulatory difficulties. There are equality problems. Things are not up to speed at that level. On the scientific level, however, they do a lot of things, and very interesting things. The main question for Israel is export. Can we export? What we see happening over the years actually is that the Israeli government is constantly saying no, no, no, no. The major reason I think is still the problems they have with their own grower community or their grower base that have caused some trouble in the past, also internal problems they see.

Seth Adler: Science, as you mentioned, is unparalleled, there's no question about it. As far as number of scientists in the square footage.

Tjalling E.: They are known for it. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

Seth Adler: Where is the disconnect once we actually put shovels into land?

Tjalling E.: There's a word people don't like it too often, too much when I say it. Standardization. It's if you want to start from scratch with cannabis in the pharmaceutical way, you need a standardized product and standardization means the chemical content in its full needs to be the same. It's not only THC and CBD. Everybody knows that by now. So you need a chemical profile that is stable and you can deliver on an ongoing basis. It's not what those users can deliver right now. We actually see the amount coming from Israel to us now for pharmaceutical purposes.

Seth Adler: Okay. But we're working on it, as they say, right? So Africa is fascinating. I saw an article about South Africa. That entire continent, what would you say? How would we include what they're doing here?

Tjalling E.: They are pretty serious. South Africa is to their regard a third world country. They have a quite well elaborated pharmaceutical industry. There are pharmaceutical parties that have a real interest. Politically, the change has been made. Cannabis is allowed in South Africa. Lesotho is one of those little countries in South Africa actually that started issuing licenses. That was a little bit a commercial action. We see parties there that are not yet up to speed. They have to get up to speed. They are getting there. But there's also interest from other more remote African countries like Kenya. We saw interest from Mozambique, no it was not Mozambique. It was Kenya and it was, I forgot about the name.

Seth Adler: Madagascar?

Tjalling E.: That's it. No, not Madagascar. Malta is not Africa, but it fits in the Middle Eastern Seas or in the ... How do you call that sea?

Seth Adler: It's basically just suppose between Italy and Croatia and right there. Caspian Sea. I don't know. I'm American I'm not supposed to know, right?

Tjalling E.: We call it the Middle Country Sea, but it's somewhere between Africa and Italy. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

Seth Adler: But that's another nation. This is a small nation, and obviously see the opportunity to help patients but also I would imagine some tax incentives, some economy incentive.

Tjalling E.: Exactly. That's what we're talking about. So Malta is already announcing themselves basically as a hub. Come over here, we can help you. And they are attracting producers, but they are also taking care of their own patients. They do that the right way. But from Africa, indeed South Africa is the most important one right now. We see more South African countries that are having an interest, but they are really remote and they are under developed in that regard. Africa will still be even difficult place to start playing, but I see the development coming to fruition basically this year of 2019 as we speak. There are a few pharmaceutical companies preparing for making extracts, oil tinctures, the normal way of doing things in cannabis, and they are focusing on the cancer and HIV problem, especially, which is still quite big in Africa.

Seth Adler: Yeah. So I'll put you on the spot, if you don't mind, and I will remind you of the nation of Canada before I ask you, not necessarily in any particular order. But top five countries for 2019, what are the countries that we should all be paying attention to?

Tjalling E.: Oh, Canada definitely. That's a number one country obviously.

Seth Adler: Right.

Tjalling E.: The U.S. still. Things are happening there. I'm very interested to see the pharmaceutical development. I'm not sure whether it will be really be there in 2019 but close.

Seth Adler: Got it. You always have to pay attention to the U.S.

Tjalling E.: Pay attention to the U.S. Pay attention to especially Germany. Germany, the tender will be published. The tender has been published as the subscribers have subscribed. We are expecting news from them in February/March, maybe in April at the latest. But then it will unfold how the German situation will look like. I would also focus not so much on a country that way but I would say the EMA. The European Medicine's Agency will come with something in 2019. I am pretty sure. At least they will either issue a monography and that is a real important document that creates the baseline for a product. So I expect them to come with that in 2019. And also not a country but something we really have to focus on is the United Nations.

Seth Adler: this was going to be my last question but continue please.

Tjalling E.: Yeah but because from a country perspective, of course we can start call, naming more countries. Israel will be definitely interesting. But I put them basically all now on the same level. New Zealand, mark New Zealand. It's a small country but things are really bubbling under there. We can expect something there to happen as well.

Seth Adler: But the UN, Tjalling.

Tjalling E.: But the UN. Let's get to that point because a lot of things happened. The UN has a few organizations next among them. The WHO is a known one, which is basically advising the UN on healthcare issues. Then we have internally the International Narcotic Control Board, the INCB, they're watchdog. They are looking if countries are actually doing prohibited things according to the UN treaties with regard to cannabis. And we have the CND, the Committee on Narcotic Drugs. So the INCB had a meeting this year, 2018, in October where they said, "We don't like what Canada is doing. They make cannabis a recreational thing where we allowed for medical only. We will write about that in our report, which will come in February '18." So there will be something to chew on from that end.

Seth Adler: Yup.

Tjalling E.: Then the Committee on Narcotic Drugs, the CND is an advisor club. Basically existing of regulators from all countries that are member of the UN. That committee has its meeting in March, and they will definitely come with an advice on ... Although it's expected, I have to be very careful. It's very much expected that they will come with an advice on how to further regulate cannabis, cannabinoids for medicinal purposes. That might lead at some point to a rescheduling. The WHO already said something in 2018 with regard to health issues surrounded CBD. They say no, we don't see health issues there. And they're also studying now on THC as a product that might have to be rescheduled for its medical value.

Seth Adler: So there you have it. With science and your contributing there, thanks for that. With business and with governance, with regulations. This is all on the way to changing dramatically in 2019.

Tjalling E.: Yeah.

Seth Adler: It's amazing. You don't have too much time so I'll ask you three final questions. Number one, how you doing. What happened on the plane? Maybe there's some product that you ...

Tjalling E.: Maybe. It'd be very helpful. The thing is in the plane what happened to me, I slept too well. Nobody can sleep in a plane. I can sleep in a plane. So I slept too well, but in a very ... The way I laid down was probably not too good. So I'm still suffering some muscle aching here in my body.

Seth Adler: And you're not necessarily ... You and I aren't the same height. You've got at least a few inches. So for you to fall asleep wrong in a plane is actually going to hurt more than if I did. How do you think everything else is going? So you have been doing this for about six months, and by that, I mean, what is it? 15 years.

Tjalling E.: Legally with the Dutch government now for more than 16 years. Yeah.

Seth Adler: 16 years.

Tjalling E.: November 2002, we started.

Seth Adler: It obviously has happened much more slowly than you would have liked, but lately, how do you think we're doing as the world and cannabis?

Tjalling E.: Legally, every country tries to do it best, but we should align among those countries and harmonize. If we harmonize our regulations around medicinal cannabis, how difficult it may be for some countries to maybe come back a little bit like Canada. Canada will have to make a small step back I think. Other countries have to gear up a little bit more, but harmonize to allow patients to also travel with their products, go into countries, have access to the products in other countries. Those things need to happen very, I would say rather today than tomorrow. But that's a difficult thing. I know.

Seth Adler: And when you say ... I just want to make sure that we're on the same page. When you say take a step back for Canada, you are talking about the separation of medical and recreational.

Tjalling E.: Yeah.

Seth Adler: And that's fine as far as regulations are concerned.

Tjalling E.: Yes.

Seth Adler: But when folks ask me, "Aren't we talking about the same plant?"

Tjalling E.: Of course.

Seth Adler: How can we separate it if it's the same plant?

Tjalling E.: It's the same plant like you and me are the same humans. But your Seth. I'm Tjalling. We are totally different. So from a chemical perspective, cannabis plants can be very different. With different chemical entities inside of it. So 20 years ago, nobody knew about the difference between THC and CBD. We now know kind of, and science is getting into it. But there are more products inside. We for medical use only, we need a product that is well defined and is full spectrum and not only for just THC or CBD. We need a full layout of whatever is in there so doctors can actually work with it and pharmacists and the scientists can work with that. Where we have a recreational products, and that you can compare to wine, beer, whatever, where you have all kinds of different plants. And today there's a little bit more in it, tomorrow a little bit less of this and duh, duh, duh. That's where you know in your vineyards you have the 2017 Chardonnay, which is really great, but the 2015 was awful. That kind of differences. That's what you have on the recreational side. Don't bring that to the medicine side where people use it as a true medicine. That is where you expect something always to be consistently be the same.

Seth Adler: If I have epilepsy and I don't want to seize, I need to make sure that my medicine is consistent.

Tjalling E.: Exactly, and that on the other end, you don't have all kinds of different side effects you don't like as an epileptic patient. Don't do it. Have the same product over and over again. That's where you have to make a differentiation.

Seth Adler: And you know of course the final question, it's always the same on the soundtrack of your life, one track, one song that's got to be on there, what would be a song for today, Tjalling?

Tjalling E.: Oh, man. You are always asking me something that is really ... Lately I'm deeply into Treme, what was it the last time? Was it also Treme? No.

Seth Adler: Not necessarily. No, I don't think so. But Chuck Berry. That's good stuff.

Tjalling E.: There's one song and it very much relates to cannabis, and I want to have that on screen. It's a song called Tulane. You know that?

Seth Adler: I don't know that. I've got to look it up.

Tjalling E.: Look it up. Tulane. It's a very nice story of something that happened in the '50s already. When the cubs were after the good crop, they had under there ... In their shop somewhere hidden. It was about good crop and they had to run from the cops. So Tulane, you should play that one.

Seth Adler: I can't believe it. I can't believe I don't know it. I'm going to look it up right now. Very much appreciate it. I'll throw Promise Land back at you from Chuck Berry, which is another good one. Of course Johnny Be Good. But we'll leave it there as far as that's concerned.

Tjalling E.: Find this one.

Seth Adler: What's that?

Tjalling E.: Find this one.

Seth Adler: I have to find it. Absolutely. Tjalling Erkelens, thank you so much for your time as always. Very much looking forward to checking on with you down the line.

Tjalling E.: Thank you very much, Seth. See you next time.

Seth Adler: And there you have Tjalling Erkelens. Very much appreciate his time. Very much appreciate your time. Stay tuned.

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Cannabis Economy is a real-time history of legal cannabis. We chronicle how personal and industry histories have combined to provide our current reality.